005 - Planning vs Doing, AI Agents Explained, and the First Five Minutes Rule

[0:00] Hello and welcome. Today we're going to be going over agents, what they even are, planning versus doing, the first five minutes of any hard activity, creativity, and whatever else we find ourselves in. And now I'm going to start the thing.

[0:53] picking the life that you want to lead and how to make it happen. I'm Jeff. This is Katy. Click subscribe. If you're watching, I'm pointing at my phone because we have live stream participants this time. Oh my gosh, live stream happens. They got to see us do our pre-show. Yeah, our pre-show, yeah. Yeah, that's fun. The thing I wanted to say was, oh yeah, also this thing right here, Katy doesn't even know this, this thing fell down in the middle of me recording a thing yesterday. Oh, it does look a little bit sketchy. Yeah, so it's not, it's not flush. This podcast recording has... Yeah, it's just a little extra drama that, you know, it's just a little bit of danger. A little bit, yeah. Katy, kick us off today. You made a comment that made me smile. So this was last night we were talking and I, I don't know, we were working on something for the company and I mentioned, because I think you were sending agents out to go do something. You're like, send five agents. And I'm like, you know, when we first started this, I honestly didn't know what agents were. Like, I knew AI did AI things, but I didn't know agents were the, the thing. And we started an AI development and

[2:10] services company. Just to keep you in the loop on that. So I want to hear now, now that you're just, you know, so well educated on the topic. Also, I'm going to switch this thing going. Tell me, what is the Katy definition of what an agent is? Oh, you didn't tell me I was going to have to define something. So, you know, I don't know. I think I would say an agent is a, it's the robot, one of the robots. It's the, I don't know. It's the intellect of one of the, uh, summation of all human knowledge. Oh my God. Let's go. Let's go really foundation. I'll, I'll bill you out. Okay. Well, hang on. Let me try it. Let me just try, um, that you send out and go find the information. There you go. There's my definition of an agent. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, it's just a instance of a model that you are running. Um, and yeah, they, they do all of our, uh, all of our things. But I, the thing I was saying though is cause I obviously this is very real life. We're not trying to filter anything out is the, um, I didn't know what it was. And I think there's a lot of opportunity to help people that don't know much about AI to

[3:27] talk about it and define some of the terms. Cause they're all new. Um, that, you know, people are figuring out what to label things as and I don't know, I can't be the only one that didn't know what an agent was. No, it, I mean, it is kind of a funny thing about how you can like just be around a term a lot. But then if you don't actually take the time to sit down and like, okay, what, what do we actually mean when we're talking about this thing? Uh, I, I would say that one of the things that like, I am just a naturally curious person about if I hear someone use a term, I'll like right away or write it down. And then like, I want to understand what exactly it is that we were talking about or just, I'm also not a shy person to just ask questions. Yeah. And I, I would encourage you and also anyone, like if there's just stuff that's out there, especially now that we are in an ever changing world at an increasing pace, uh, the ability to. Ask questions, try to figure some stuff out. A lot of the time, the, the basic understanding of it, or even the intermediate understanding of it is not a very high barrier. So I, I just would say that as a point of encouragement that usually, uh, getting

[4:45] into something, the, the, the feeling of how much, you know, barrier it is to understanding is actually a lot, uh, like it, it feels a lot higher than it actually is. Yeah. So I think as I'm approaching 40, I'm having to look up, I mean, not, I mean your father or not, if you're approaching 40, then I, you're basically, I got my reservation set at the restaurant. Okay. Okay. But what I was going to say is I've had to look up so many acronyms because Ludo, I don't know what any acronym is ever. And I always have to look it up. I think you know more. Well, I know for a fact you do, cause I've had to ask you like, a hundred times, what does that even mean? So that's another one. I don't know. I know you, you got all intellectual on me, but I was yeah, life is measured in how many acronyms you know. I don't know any. Yeah. Well, oh boy. And you get times running out as you mentioned. All right. Can you have a first question also this week? Can you go ahead and kick us off at that? Sure. Um, so what percentage of your time should you spend planning versus doing when you're trying to start something new? Yeah, it was kind of a topic as we kind of do some new things in the business.

[6:01] And I mean, and honestly, you know, right now in our company, there's certain things that we have out in the world, like the apps and things like that. But there's also, you know, a lot of other things that we have aspirations for and being able to find the balance of how much do we continue to plan this thing versus how long until we, you know, just start getting something out into the world. Um, so I, I mean, I've definitely thought a lot about, you know, a lot about this and maybe the right way to go about it, or things that I've found that have resulted in good outcomes, uh, to lessons in this space. But I know that we come at this maybe a little bit differently. Um, whereas maybe I'm a little bit more willing to, you know, just throw stuff out there. I'm starting a live stream randomly. Um, or that, you know, I'm willing to just start a podcast and, um, figure it out as we go along. But you are a little bit more, you know, conservative in that space. Um, so I guess like, where, where do you, where does your mind come at from, from this sort of thing? I think, and I think it's just, it's probably the type of person that I am compared to you. I think you definitely have more of a

[7:17] visionary mindset where I'm more of a support in that. So when there's a. Big idea that you want to do, for example, starting the podcast, starting companies. I think the, and we've talked about this a little bit, the overwhelming feeling of all of the things I have to figure out kind of bears down on me a little bit. And I, if I don't feel like I have a clear path, it, like, I, I feel like I just kind of crumble a little bit. So we're, which is one reason why I think we compliment each other so well. Is I'm definitely wanting to go execute once I have my plan. Um, but sometimes building that plan takes a little more time for someone like me than it does. And not necessarily. I think that you just do a really great job of figuring out what those steps are. Um, and then I can go execute because like a lot of the time, well, for example, Jeff, even when we were doing kind of sitting back and evaluating where things were at, you made us do a, that brainstorm session. And I, you know,

[8:32] I was like, okay, I'm on board. Like we're a real company. Yeah. Right. Um, with sticky notes and everything. But I, for me, sometimes something like that seems a little overwhelming, but then once I get into it, I'm good. Once I, cause once you wrote down the specific things that, cause when you said, okay, we're going to have a brainstorming session, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't, I suck at this. Um, but when you wrote down the specific questions that we needed to answer, it brought it in a little bit for me. So I was able to like, oh, okay, I can, I can build on that. Um, so where, see like where if I had to be the one that had to like define the questions, I probably would have struggled a little bit, but once you define them, I was able to run with it. Yeah. So I don't know if I answered your question. No, that's good. And honestly, the, the brainstorming session I feel like is a good, uh, analog to use to talk about some of this stuff. Uh, so the, how I would answer the question first off is while I am willing to hop into things, I do think that the planning, like giving the stuff intentional thought is super, super important, but where I feel like maybe, maybe if there's some piece of advice that you could take from this, the thing I would

[9:49] suggest is maybe the best way to start is, you know, you, you spend at, in, in the start of something, you spend 95% of the time planning and 5% doing, but that 5% doing, I would encourage you to have that be very early on in the process. There is a clarifying amount of, uh, just when you go into something and you actually start and you can see a little bit of the rubber meeting the road, it helps all inform all of the things that you're going to be doing. And so I think that's, that's, that's the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I didn't really have, I just had like this, this feeling inside, but like, okay, we need to have a really, uh, clear understanding as a company where we're going. And I want to make sure that, you know, you, me, the team we're moving toward a direction that is going to be successful. I don't know all the specifics. I have some like general themes of something that, uh, you know, I would like us to, to work through and strategize about. Um, and I know just how my brain works. Like I, I need someone like you to be able to bounce some things off of, and like,

[11:04] we can have some good dialogue and conversation and, and just through prior experiences. I know for me, the number one way to do that is get me a whiteboard and maybe some sticky notes and go through and talk through it and just, just get started. And, and honestly, like I didn't even, I didn't know where we were going to go with that. I mean, we started with a pretty vague premise of, you know, write down questions or challenges of, of like, and I, we had three or we had just one question and what was it? Uh, it was challenges, questions, and ideas or dreams or goals, goals, goals. Yeah. Goals, challenges, questions. And we spent like five to seven minutes on each one of those things. And just like, what stuff about the business do we need to talk about? And then, no, I was going to say, one thing I really liked how, which I don't even know if you did, I'm sure you did this intentionally maybe, but the way we did challenges first. So we identified things that were pain points and then we did questions based off of those pain points. And then we did dreams. I don't know. It was nice to end with dreams and things that, you know, big goals that we want to do. Um, but I liked how you laid that out very, I think intentionally, um, we'll go with intention. We'll go with intentionally. Yeah. Make you sound really smart. Thank you.

[12:20] Yeah. Um, but it helped, but it also really helped me expand more on what it is I was trying to get to. And I, I feel like I came up and I was really proud of myself, but you know, when you were putting up the sticky notes, you were like, these are really good questions. Oh, and we had a lot of, you know, a lot of aligned things. Um, the, the thing about that though is, you know, we could have sat and, you know, talked about all the different like individual pieces that we have been working on over the past, you know, a couple of weeks. But, uh, to me, I, you know, I needed to take a step back and more holistically look at something. The, that activity in and of itself that, that could have resulted in like another two weeks of kind of just floundering, or we could take some action in this case, you know, have this little brainstorming session. And, and now, you know, when we talk about stuff and we do do planning and we're working through it, we have now a shared understanding of how we want to move forward. And, and that's why I say, you know, going back to the question, like what percent of your time should you spend doing versus planning? Um, that I just action is clarifying. That would be the one thing I would say action is clarifying. Uh, planning is important.

[13:38] And if you spend, if you want to have a good use of your time planning, uh, having some action that you're basing some of that planning around helps because otherwise it does just become an academic exercise that may be, you know, related to how things play out and how reality actually is, but not necessarily. And you could go way down a road, uh, and spending a lot of time trying to think through how something's going to work. And then you actually go to execute and you realize, ah, son of a gun, like all of this stuff is like 10% off or 20% off. And you know, if we had, we just started, we would have learned a lot more along the way. And I can just, I could, I could think of so many times in my career or through this business where that's been the case. And it, it really is just something that you have to just take the plunge and do. Yeah. And I know we talked about it on another episode of, you know, you're not gonna do it, right. You're not gonna do it probably well the first time, but you just have to try and learn and pivot and try and learn and pivot. But do you want to talk about what kind of made you sit back and want to do this session? Cause it kind of threw, I honestly didn't know we were doing that. Yeah. Um, let's see if I

[14:53] can articulate this. So, um, I, if you can't tell just in my mannerisms and talking, uh, like I have undiagnosed ADHD, almost assuredly, uh, this is probably not a major shock. Uh, but the, the thing that I have always found is I feel like I have a superpower. If there's a thing that I can singularly focus on, uh, for her, a long period of time, but I feel pulled out of that. If I feel that the, there is no clear singular good thing for me to spend my time on. Uh, and if it's very ambiguous, then I almost feel like I just, even if I had a very clear, like a couple of things that I needed to do, if, if it's not toward a goal that I very concretely understand, I just, I feel unsettled. I don't know how else to describe it. Like I, I can't, I can't focus on that because I feel like there's a bigger problem just in the same way. Like, honestly, like in our relationship, uh, whereas like if we, uh, had a fight or like we're disagreeing about something, uh, you, you might, based on my interpretation of things, just think that that's like a bedtime story or something

[16:09] like you're, you're out. No big deal. Like I could sleep. I'm fine. Whereas like, I will, you know, ruminate on that. I won't be able to sleep. Like it'll take me hours to go to bed and then I'll wake up and I'll be thinking about it. And then like, I, I just have that like just nagging thought. And like, that's even true, you know, if we have work things or business things that are just not going good, like I can't let that go. Um, and so it's very similar feeling when there's not a clear direction or goal, or there's just parts of the goal that maybe have changed. And like, I know that it's changed, but I haven't figured out the specifics of what that new target is. And, and so for me, the, it, it just, it quickly becomes clear when I'm not able to work on something and just trying to identify why. And then in this instance, I'm like, okay, well, you know, we've, we've had some shifts in how we think about the company and I need to really understand what that actually means so that I have the peace of mind to clearly chase after, you know, whatever that new goal is. Yeah, for sure. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I obviously having been with you for as many years as I have, I feel that on

[17:25] every level what you're saying. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Sometimes I have a hard time letting some things go just a bit, just a little bit, just a little bit of fixation problems. Um, okay. What's next Katy? Uh, oh yeah, we have a new corner. Katy, I have my quote corner and Katy has her own corner. Katy, you want to introduce your sure it's Katy brings a short to short corner. Um, I always send them out to everybody, whether you like it or not. And so now you're all subject to this as well. Yes. We're not going to play it on the podcast though. Yeah. Because that is technologically challenging and we're not editing this show very much and that would be a lot of work. And so therefore Katy is just going to describe. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, I saw it on Instagram and it was, I tried to look up who it was and I need to probably, I should have spent a little bit more time on it, but I'm going to try and find out who it is. So I'm going to look it up on Instagram and I'm going to try and find out who it is. Um, but he is a running trainer in Kenya and he made a reel about, and he has a whole bunch of reels. He's actually really, really good, um, about talking about the first five minutes of running and how the battle isn't with finishing,

[18:40] for example, a six mile run in the morning because you want to sleep in. It's just a matter of getting out the door for the first five minutes. And if you don't feel it after five minutes, then you're not guilt-free. You can, you know, say, okay, it's not, today's not the day, but you put on like you lace up and you go out for five minutes. Um, and I just thought that was really insightful. And one thing I was thinking about too is, and I think it could be good for it. Even anything, it doesn't have to be running. It could be anything that's hard. If you just start for five minutes, see where you get to five. And I think sometimes, you know, five to 10 minutes is a good amount of time to give yourself. Yeah. Trying to do something hard. Um, but I don't know. I just found it to be really insightful and good. And, you know, I think having, feeling like you have that permission to quit, if it's just not happening that day, guilt-free is a little bit of that freedom, um, that you don't have to let it hang on you. Yeah. And I mean, definitely that is a feeling that I've had before. You know, the, the hardest part is getting out the door. Um, with that, are there things that you've, I mean, you're a very disciplined person. Like if you say

[19:56] you're going to do something, then like it's going to happen. Uh, whereas I historically maybe consider commitments to be, um, you know, just ideas, suggestions of what I plan to do. Um, I try to do a lot better at that these days. The, uh, as someone who is like, as long as I've known you, that's been a strength though. Uh, are there parts of this that you employ to, you know, like, okay, I'm, I'm going to start this thing that I've committed to. Uh, and then, you know, you get into it or like what, what's your experience in this space? I'm curious. It's weird. Um, and I think it's kind of honestly, just like you say that when you have your superpower of, you can really hone in if you have that focus time. Whereas for me, it's, if I've made that decision for myself that I'm going to do something, I just don't give myself another option. I'm going to do it. Um, I don't, I know that's not that helpful or insightful, but I think it's a commitment to myself. Um, but I struggle to like, I'm not like, I'm not the most disciplined person on the planet, but I

[21:12] feel like you're in the upper percentile though. But I don't know. I think it's just something I, I make a decision that I'm going to do something and I commit to it. Um, and I don't know. I think that can look different for different people could be writing it down. It could be, you know, setting your clothes out the night before, like we've talked about could be, you know, just putting on your workout clothes, um, or, you know, just being intentional about what it is that I'm doing and then making sure it happens, making that commitment. To yourself, because if you can't, if you can't keep a commitment to yourself, then I think that's just going to be hard to do other sort of commitments too. Yeah. So I can, I can give an example of where I do feel like I do this. Well, um, that's outside of like the, you know, running and fitness examples is, and this just comes from my own experience in career and working on stuff. Oftentimes I do not feel, like getting started, especially, you know, after a full-time job and then coming home and then spending another, you know, four to six hours on bravely work. Uh, but I have strung

[22:29] together now, you know, a pretty consistent habit at that. And, and Katy can attest like sometimes, you know, I'll come home and I just like, I need to like reset for five, 10 minutes or sometimes accidentally fall asleep at five o'clock in the evening. But the, the, the usual path on that is, you know, I'll take a little bit of a reset, but then, uh, I, I know that like, if I just get started, then it'll be fine. Like every, every time that's been true. Like if I just get started working on the thing, I can, I can power through yesterday. For example, I was, yeah, like you, we needed to do some filming for advertisements and some stuff for the website. And, you know, that's not something that I spend a ton of time doing is, you know, reading off a script or coming up with stuff to say. And, and saying all that stuff and getting it recorded and uploading stuff like that. And so, because I don't have like a really long practiced history doing it, it feels big. Like it feels massive to do. Yeah. And, um, and I'll say almost all of the actual hard part of that is just starting. Yeah. I like, for example, one of the, one of the videos for the website, it ended up taking about five to 10

[23:47] minutes to, to write out what I wanted to say and kind of planning through and picking out what, what it was. And then I went down here and recorded it and it was five minutes and then it was done. And so in this instance, it wasn't just the five minutes that was what I needed to do. Like that was the entirety of the thing I was worried about. And you put these things in your head and it's like, well, I can't, I can't possibly film tonight because I have so many other things we have to dinner. And then like, I'm tired and I have a few other bravely things I need to attend to. I'm not going to be able to fit this in. And it is such a freaking cop-out that we trick ourselves into because in reality, like all in, like if that was what I wanted to do, I actually did another one too. And it was challenging for different reasons. Uh, but like all, all in, I think I was down here about an hour and a half. Um, and, and I would say, had I not had some technical challenges that I had to work through, I think it probably would have been about 25, 30 minutes to record two videos and, um, plus the prep work that had to go into them. That's, that is nothing. I, you could fit that. I could fit that in every single day of the week if I had to. But the, the mental block that I've had on this for like several days, uh, was so high. And it's just like, I gotta,

[25:04] I gotta just do it. Like, I just gotta say that I'm going to do it and I'm going to get started on it. Do you feel like now that you did the thing and I know you've done it just a couple of times, you feel more comfortable? Like the next time you want to record or the next time you want to do something that isn't necessarily something that you've done very many times, do you feel more, do you feel comfortable yet? Or do you think that's going to come with more time? Um, you know, I think that comfort is a hard word. I would say more so I now confirmed what I already intellectually knew, but now I've experienced it is that it's a cop-out. It's a cop-out to say that it's going to be that big of a deal. It's fricking not that big of a deal. And, and so now I, I know that about myself, that if I say that I'm not going to be able to do filming on a given day or night, uh, it has nothing to do with the practical requirements of me that I have to, you know, somehow muster. Uh, it is truly a mental block on it and just realizing that that's what it is. So like, to me, that knowledge is like, I can't go back. Uh, and like that, that's just the truth

[26:20] now. And that comfort will come over time for sure. So one other thing about this short, and then I think we can move to something else I was thinking about is, and I, maybe you can speak to this a little bit more than I can. Um, but if somebody is just starting running, for example, they want to have, they want to start that habit. They want to have a more healthy lifestyle. I do feel like, um, the first five minutes can, can feel really hard in all the minutes afterwards. I think this is, uh, oh my gosh, I can hear our children upstairs not getting along, but that's okay. We're just going to power through. Um, but, um, how, what would you tell somebody that if that first five minutes turning into 20 minutes or even 15 minutes is going to be hard the whole time? Like what, what advice would you have for somebody? Like, does it really get easier after the first five minutes? Would you say, or does that just have to come with time? Even relating to what it is talking about? Most, most of the time it does, uh, get easier right away. Um, but it like with running specifically, like I do think it's good to acknowledge that if you haven't started a running habit, uh, you're probably going to be in, in it for, uh, you know, a few weeks before that truly even

[27:38] starts to feel, uh, accurate. You certainly mentally get better at it, but like there's physical, like you can't, can't change the laws of physics and it does take a while for your body to adapt. And, and there's, there's no mental tricks that make that not true. Um, but you know, a thing I would say to people, and this is Jeff bringing a short to Katy's short corner. Um, a quote that I had heard on that was something along the lines of it's okay to suck. It's not okay to skip. Uh, so, you know, you can, you can show up and you can do a crappy job and you can go, you know, halfheartedly jog for five minutes and call it a day and run walk or, uh, you know, you can, you can get down here and you can do a bad job at filming and end up throwing it all out. Um, that's okay. Uh, the, the thing that you have to stop yourself from doing is stop skipping. Don't defer. Don't, don't give up because, and I think this is a, maybe a James clear quote or something like that. But, um, something about like, you know, missing something once, is a, uh, I can't remember like it's something about, but basically the premise is if you miss one thing, um, you know, that's just a

[28:55] hiccup, but two thing, if you miss two times in a row, then you're starting a new habit. Yeah. And, and that's the importance of, you know, not skipping. Yep. That's good. So I want to address two ADHD things. One, we have our kids screaming up and then we also have some comments in the chat that I wish I could see there's flags. I don't know what flags they are. Um, I'm bad at flags. This will be a fun game. We need to, I need to get the, you need to have like another screen over here. So you can see, would it be worth grabbing it? Or I don't know. Yeah. Can you do like a monologue while I go and see if there's any good comments in the chat? Do you want me to read, uh, your quote or are we going to do that here in a minute? Oh my goodness. Y'all, if you can hear our kids upstairs, it's not sounding good. I have all of the comments summarized from the chat. You ready? Ready. Just a bunch of people saying hi. And that's about it. Oh, hi. Hi everybody. Really nice. Yep. All right. So, um, I, I do have a quote for, for quote corner, uh, that I want to talk a little bit about as I think it's an interesting way to talk about or think

[30:12] about creativity. Yeah. Uh, and it's, uh, Twyla Tharp. And I, I don't know a lot about, uh, Twyla other than, um, Tony Emmy award-winning American choreographer. So definitely a prolific person in the creativity space. The quote is creativity is a habit and the best creativity is a result of good work habits. And I found that one, I feel that resonates and two, it is unexpected because I, if you, if you ask somebody, you know, to define creativity and what some things that around creativity are, I feel like a lot of things that are associated with creativity are things like spontaneity or, uh, you know, unconstrained or, you know, spur of the moment extemporaneous, uh, spontaneous. And to think about creativity in the context of habits, something that you do repetitively, habits don't seem inherently creative. Um, you know, having creativity be a result of something repetitive is an interesting way to think

[31:28] about that. And, and I hadn't, I hadn't really thought about it until I read that quote that way. I'm curious, you know, how, how do you feel about creativity? I mean, you're, uh, a drummer, a musician, you have background in like the, the creative arts. Um, I don't know if you've ever thought about that. I don't know if I don't know that you think of yourself necessarily as a creative person, but I think you have some, some parts of you that you have some good creative expression. I mean, you've done random YouTube things back way in the day. We won't go into some specifics. We won't dig that out, but, but there's some, some creative streaks in you. So, uh, but like, how do you, I want to, I want to know, like, how do you think of creativity? Oh, um, so, okay. So when I think of creativity without going into as much as kind of how you find it, I think of like artists, um, music and, um, you know, paintings and like, that's, that's kind of where my brain goes with creativity. I don't think of it. Cause that could, cause when you think about that, you're like, Oh yeah, they created this beautiful thing, but it took time. They had to start from, you know, drawing little stick figures probably. And yes, some people have, you know, a

[32:43] natural ability to, you know, have, you know, good artistic style, but it definitely, that did not happen overnight. And I think that's always a really good reminder of, um, that it is a habit. And I think this is really good. And it, and honestly, I know we've talked about it earlier. Our kids are so, I'm just curious what I'm going to walk up to. It is so hard to focus on podcasting right now. Um, but is the brain, brainstorming session. Um, and those types of situations make me a little uncomfortable, but the more that we got into it, the more, you know, we started trying to define it, the more we started working those brain muscles, like the easier it became. Um, and I think that that is something I'm still learning. Um, and I do think in what I found interesting, the more I've done it, the easier it does feel not saying it, like, I don't think it gets easier. Cause I think you can always grow it when we, and maybe it does get easier, but, um, I think that it's really bad. If you want, I could go

[34:03] on a little bit of a solo monologue about creativity. Yeah. I might have to go and see what's happening. This is a podcast first, everybody. Goodbye, Katy, but understand why our kids are absolute screaming maniacs. Well, this is a, uh, a fun solo adventure. So I'll tell you a little bit about, you know, my experience, uh, when I feel most creative. And I, I, I think the thing that's interesting is it's tied to some of the other stuff that we've talked about when like you get started and you become comfortable in something. I, there's nothing that is a better feeling than, uh, you know, sitting down and thinking, down and feeling like you have a mastery of your craft and, and then coming up against a problem and being able to see like, Oh, here's all the, you know, five to 10 different ways that we can handle it. And I know that I can get down a path. I'm going to switch the camera real quick to only be on me because I don't need a, this is just a solo. This is solo pod. Now, um, who knows what I'm going to say, but, um, so anyways, when, when I sit down and I have the, the

[35:20] ability to, to look at all these different, uh, potential solutions and I can see like the one or two that I want to go kick the tires on and, and, and go and execute. And that is, it's just a really fun moment because you can, you can see all these different paths and you're picking that out. And that level of creativity of that creative problem solving, or a creative design idea, or like that moment of inspiration that like crystallizes a whole path forward. Those moments are, are just truly special. And I don't think that I think like you think of all these, uh, grand things that you see out in the world that are products of, you know, people, um, you know, creating companies and you hear these great stories and now they're brands that you see everywhere. And, you know, Amazon, or, you know, Tesla or SpaceX or, um, you know, Walmart or, you know, PepsiCo or Coke. And like, they have these just massive, massive presences and you go back to the beginning and you're like, oh, well, somebody just had this like spark of inspiration and I could turn into this whole thing. And if only I could have such a good idea. Uh, but in, in

[36:37] reality, I think if you go and you look through those things, or obviously there's millions of examples of stuff that is, you know, a little less than, you know, nation and world changing type technology companies or whatever, uh, that, which are examples. Welcome back, Katy. Glad to have you. Do we still have two kids? I'm curious. Two kids. Good. Two dogs still. That's good. And everyone's living alive. I think so. Okay. Frickin welcome. Uh, welcome back. So I, I'm talking about, uh, how, like, if you think of some of the big brands or, um, like big technology companies and stuff like that, how people think of that as like, oh man, they just must've had like this really, really good idea. And like, that's turned into this whole thing. And if only I could have such a good idea, then I would have this big thing. Um, but in reality, it, that, uh, the ability to really build something cool comes not from the first, like, oh, I just had this dream and I turned it into a whole thing, but rather a consistent willingness to go back up to,

[37:52] to take another swing and, and then take what you learn and then do it again and then take what you learn and do it again. And you build that practice. And then you get to a point where, you know, you can have those moments where, you know, I'm, I'm building a tool and I have like this little spark of like, oh, what if we did it this way? And, um, that, that little hint of creativity can, can crystallize into like a important path that you go down. But that moment doesn't happen like just in a vacuum that, that moment is a product of, you know, like the quote says, um, it's a, it's a result of good work habit. Yeah. Like it's a result of coming back to the table again and again and again. So, um, just for our, our listeners benefit, do you want to describe anything? Is there anything exciting from up above? Oh, uh, just, you know, just, yeah, just parenting is hard. It's really hard. Parenting is hard. It's a good reminder, uh, that there's always going to be challenges. You know, and what's funny and not, I don't know, funny. We have a parenting moment for a minute, but our two children are so different. So it was like, I told one to please stop.

[39:09] And then the other one started crying. And so then I was trying to make that one not cry anymore. And, and the other one was just like, I don't know. It's just so hard. You're trying to navigate two very different personalities. They're not, they're not alike. I don't know. And I'm sure, you know, other parents can relate to that. They have multiple children, um, or children. I is such an interesting thing. Navigating these big feelings and big feelings felt very differently depending on the child. Oh man. This has turned into a parenting coping podcast. That's okay. I feel like we needed a parenting coping corner. Oh man. Yeah. That's real life for you. Um, well anyways, that was fun. It was fun doing the solo pod. Uh, yeah. Yeah. I can, I can just talk forever. I'll say this. Um, summer is ending and school starts in two weeks. Yay. They need to get out of the house. They need to get out of the structure returned to their lives. Um, so I'm curious, we didn't have this in the show notes, but, uh, it's just the thing that I was thinking about, um, as you, like, as we

[40:25] go through, you know, building this company and, uh, and, and, and figure out what bravely is, you know, that I, one thing I really appreciate you is your support and all of my crazy ideas up to and including this podcast that we abandoned our children for. Um, and, uh, I, I, I'm curious from, from your perspective, what, um, what's the litmus test for you of like, okay, this is something like you would encourage me on as opposed to like checking me on that. Cause there have been things that I've had that are ideas that you, uh, that you push back against. And for, for you, what, what is it about a particular path or idea that you have from your crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy idea? Dreamer husband, uh, that it's like, okay, yeah, I, this is, this is one of the ones that we should see through. Um, I don't know if I can like articulate that well, but for me, you know, just being the support for you is you have talked about wanting to have your thing for so long. Um, and I know you've talked about this. We have a graveyard of brands, if things and

[41:42] ideas and, um, that we've tried and you never really pursued. Um, but one reason why I feel like this was different was I feel like the excitement was even more so. And I felt like even in our lives, we were to a point where I felt like, okay, this could actually happen. This could actually be a thing. Um, you know, we've matured enough. We feel like our kids are at a, a good spot to be able to do something. Sorry. I'm laughing because we can't even do it. Oh, I think it's obvious why you're laughing. We didn't even make it halfway. They weren't just little infants anymore. They were, you know, in school and, you know, we had, you know, we could spend, you know, the time because, you know, it's just a lot more hands-on when they're little tiny babies. Um, so I think it was the spark that you had talked about bravely and all the things you wanted to do and how it now felt like you could define it. You had the tools to be able to go after it. And, um, you, you were

[43:00] just really excited. And I think that was a different moment, but then to bring up your other question of when I push back, um, on things with the company right now, it's usually just when I try to identify who this is helping, who, what are we trying to solve here? And if there's not a good solve then, or if you can't, if you can't articulate it or you can't define it, then that might be a good time for me to push back a little bit. Um, and figure out, does this, does this make sense to put our time and efforts in this thing right now? Or is there something else that we should be doing, but we're not doing because we're doing too many other poking arounds that, you know, we need to just do the hard thing that we, for example, you know, make videos, make ads, even though that's not as much fun as trying to poke at this new thing that we have an idea on. Yeah. And that's where I feel honestly really grateful because, you know, lean on to, you know, in this case with

[44:15] business, keep, have that, that, that clarity presence, because I do feel like even yesterday, you know, we talked about coming down here and filming and, um, getting stuff knocked out and ultimately it wasn't that big of a deal. But I, I mean, I wasn't really in a mindset when I first started the, the evening shift of bravely to really get into that. I mean, I definitely, I I've realized in myself that if I just declare that I'm, you know, kind of eventually get into the mood, it's like when I'm running Hills and I say that I love running Hills, even though Hills are the worst. Oh wait. I mean, I love Hills. Um, but you know, you just kind of speak it into existence a little bit. So I was trying to speak that into existence yesterday, but at the same time, you do an excellent job of, you know, if, if we're going down a path that like kind of has wandered astray, uh, to bring us back and center on like, Hey, we talked about that. This is the thing that we want to do. I really want to get this done. Um, I think that's been what has been really interesting about this experience because before at the beginning of the company, I was the one who was having all the ideas, having the, I mean, and you would like have contributions that were like add ons to the things that I'd come up with. So like we'd,

[45:32] I'd come up with like a idea for an app, you know, early times. And then you would help me understand like, okay, what's the name of the thing or the logo look like and stuff like that. Whereas now, uh, as you've, gotten more comfortable in the company and, and have a little bit more of an understanding of the sort of stuff that we're doing, you now pull me back in and get me going down a path that you want us to go down because it's something joint that we've talked through, but maybe like through our strategy session of, you know, what, what it is that we want to accomplish in the next, you know, six, 12, 24 months, uh, at bravely. And so I think I feel very fortunate in that. It's just a an interesting shift that has occurred over time. Yeah. And that, and I think too, there's a part of it that sometimes, because for example, yesterday morning we woke up and we were so excited because when we came home, we were going to film so many, so much content and we were going to knock it out of the park, but I was pretty zonked from my day. Um, you were pretty zonked from your day. Um, it took us a little bit to kind of get going. Then, you know, we had kids that needed some

[46:48] attention and wanted us to watch a movie or a show with them. So we had to adjust and I was the one to go hang out with the kids and watch the show with them while you went downstairs and film. So it wasn't exactly how we had initially planned it, but we had to figure out a way to make it work, um, with the situation. So to take a slant at this, um, I have another part of it that I'm curious on. Um, I mentioned the shift of over time with bravely, there have been things that you really latch onto. And now there's like a arm of the business that is honestly the, the arm driven by you and your skillset and the things that you bring to the table and the things that you're good at, uh, and the things that I can obviously contribute to as well. But um, I, I'm curious, how have you, how has the experience been of figuring out what this looks like for you and where do you, like, how do you feel now about bravely and your place in it? I think I'm becoming more warmed up to the fact that I have something to bring.

[48:05] I don't think six months ago, I would have even thought that was a possibility. Um, and I do think there is something about you keep coming to the well, you keep coming to the thing and eventually you get comfortable with it. And I think that's kind of where I've got to is I've, which, you know, this is something too, we've talked about, I've immersed myself so much in bravely and the company and all of the things that, um, you know, it's sparked the creativity of how can I contribute. It's sparked, um, understanding of things that I can support you on more. So you don't have to lead so much. Um, but I honestly don't remember the initial question. It's okay. I feel like this has just been a little bit of a rough episode. No, I think it's been killer. I think I had the best monologue I've ever had. So don't worry. I, I brought up the average there for sure. Now I'm just joking. Um, the, the, the perspective shift that time

[49:23] brings, I think is, should not be underestimated things that feel impossible today will not feel impossible in the future. Or, or if you have something that you feel you know, 3% comfortable doing today, that is not going to be your lived experience in the future. And I, I think we, we look at stuff as insurmountable because we look at it with the skillset that we have at the bottom of the mountain. And that is just not how it works. You learn how to climb the mountain as you're going. And the skills that you have halfway up are going to be significantly different than you. And I, I think it's just funny. Like, I, I see this, um, in you a lot, the, the lack of confidence that at the start that you're going to be able to contribute, uh, or that you are going to be able to figure out a thing, but like I, there's not a, there's not a part of what we've done that I feel like you can't do. Yeah. And I, I, it's been fun to see you shift a little bit in

[50:41] understanding that about yourself and figuring out like, oh, this is a category of a thing that I can own. Like, it's just been really cool. Yeah. And I will say this new branch of the business is definitely far outside my comfort zone. So there's a lot of growth still happening there and will happen. I definitely feel at base camp right now. I'm, you know, it's, it's a little uncomfortable, but I know I can do it. I know I have the tools and the skillset to do the thing. And I'm, there's like nerves, but there's also a lot of excitement because I am excited to see how I look halfway up that mountain, how I look, you know, even, you know, it'll just be fun to see. And like, even just hearing you talk through that, it's such a funny thing from my perspective, because it's not like it's something that you haven't done before. Uh, and it's a thing that you, without any help or anything can handle for from start to finish. And, and sure. Yeah. There's some rough edges that we can work through, but like, my gosh, that like you already have 97% of the skillset to do the thing effectively. Uh, and

[51:56] so, and you also have a very enthusiastic husband who will help on some of the more, you know, scaly type things, uh, to, to make it be an efficient process. Like that's just honestly about the most fun thing I could think of is like, Ooh, a cool process to be able to automate some stuff on. That's, that is like straight over the plate, Jeff stuff. Um, uh, yeah, like I I'm good at that sort of thing. And I think that's fun and easy. Like that's no big deal. And so perhaps even the, you know, the small number of things that are not necessarily strengths of yours are strengths of mine on this. And so to me, it's, it's funny that you think that you're at base camp. Uh, but I, if you're at base camp, I feel like you are a very prepared high career, but no, I think that was a lot of kind words. Thank you. I think sometimes I don't have as much confidence in myself as you have confidence in me, but when I hear it, it does help that. So thank you. I mean, it's, it's not even, I'm not, not sure. I mean, I I'm glad that the side effect is confidence, but that's not even the intent. Like it's just calling it like it is. Um, and I think sometimes you P I think sometimes people need to hear a different perspective on

[53:11] where they're at. Because it doesn't always brains are weird, man. Like you don't always have a very good, uh, understanding of where you're actually at. And that, which is unfortunate because I think it limits people if they, if they feel that they are at base camp, but in reality, like they have all the skills to get to the top of the mountain, uh, already. So it's not even, not even a matter of figuring it out as you go so much as it is just going and doing stuff that you're already capable of. Yeah. And I think to another thing about that is if you don't feel that way, if you feel like you don't have the capabilities to do something, then you should evaluate who you're surrounding yourself with and what you're surrounding yourself with, because you're a lot more capable than what you realize. And I'm really grateful that, you know, even when I have moments where I doubt and don't have that confidence that you do such a great job of lifting me up and making me, and it just, it just helps a lot. Um, especially someone like me that doesn't, that self-confidence isn't always the strongest, um, personality trait I have. So thank you. I appreciate that. Well, and I think honestly, uh, man, I wish we could have gotten to the best part of the podcast

[54:27] more than 54 minutes in because now I feel like we're going to run out of time a little bit, but the, uh, I think that's so true. Uh, and I think that's such an important part of all this is the, the understanding of where you're at is so, it's so important to have people around you and surrounding yourself with people that self-correct that, or that correct that, uh, in the positive direction and not in the negative direction. Cause like, honestly, uh, I, I mean, first off, if you are so arrogant that you can think you can do anything, you don't need this anyways. Um, and so this isn't to those people. Um, and I think that's such an important part of people. Um, but for everybody else who either has a accurate representation of what they can do, which I would say is probably not most people. Um, and then the vast, vast majority of humans on the planet who have a lower interpretation of their position, uh, with regard to what they're doing. Um, but for everybody else who either has a accurate representation of what they're doing. Um, then you need, like, you need to find

[55:43] different people to spend time with, which, I mean, I, I realize the loaded this, that that can be, cause that can, depending on who those people are that are bringing you down, uh, you know, the circumstances with that. I mean, when you have like family or other, you know, people that you work with or things like that, like some of those things are easier to change than others. But I will say, uh, that it almost certainly, and by almost certainly, I mean, I'm not saying that it's not, I'm not saying that it's not, I'm not I might as well just say, certainly it, it is unjustified. You should not have people who make you feel like you could do less than what you think you can do. Uh, you should not have people who pull you back in. Um, you should have people who are, are pushing you out because, uh, and not pushing, pushing you out. It's a funny way to say that you should, you should have people who are encouraging you to try a new thing, lifting you up. Thank you. Um, because almost assuredly that is the, the correction that you need with your perspective. Yeah, I agree. Maybe we can talk more about that on another podcast. So really fast before we sign off, let's give our viewers a, how is Sydney, Sydney going? Um, Sydney training going job. It's so bad. You guys,

[57:00] it's so hot outside. Oh, it's, it's, it's bad. I mean, what are we like this weekend? We're planning to do four mile loops just again. And again, uh, with ice pack things that we carry on our shoulders and, uh, and just honestly to reset because it is, it is truly dreadful. Yeah. It's like, so it's so depressing. Like, like my heart rate is like complete garbage, but I mean, I know that it's from heat and stuff like that, but man, it is, it is hard. And I, I do not handle heat. Well, yeah, same. And I hope that it just really well for Sydney because it's going to be there winter when we're there. So hopefully all this heat training pays off. That's what I'm that's, that's the optimism there. I'm going to, I'm going to like stand on that. Yeah. Well, we're definitely going to see what the lower limit of training can be, uh, going to really push the limits. I mean, we do have the benefit of having just finished a marathon, um, a handful of weeks ago. So it's not like we're starting from zero going into this, but it is, it is. It's definitely not going to be PR territory. I can't wait to fill everybody in on how it goes, but maybe it'll be really good. I'm, I'm

[58:16] going to stay optimistic, but all right. Any final thoughts before we go into the, the outro housekeeping things, thanks for hanging with us. We know this was not, um, as the other episodes, it's a real banger there in the middle, uh, where, but, but our, um, our panel didn't fall. Thank you panel. Yeah. You stayed up panel. Good job. Yeah. I wonder when that fell. I, I, I don't, so it fell, but I don't know when it fell. Like it was like when I was out of the room because I came back. Oh, okay. So you weren't like filming. Well, I, I had been filming because I went like there, it was not down on one part of when I was filming and then it was down on others. And so it must have happened like when I went in something, who knows. Okay. So, uh, first off for those of you who joined the live stream, thank you for joining the live stream. That was fun. And if you, have questions for us, uh, we've had a couple of comments here or there, and we've tried to incorporate those, but I would love to get more questions from our listeners. If you can email us at build horizons.com, we would love that. And we will incorporate those into the topics that we cover. Um, and yeah, just send us whatever you got, uh, say hi, whatever you'd like.

[59:31] Uh, and with that, Katy, I'm going to give it to you to send us home, subscribe if you liked it and keep building with us. And we are cheering you on. Thank you. Bye-bye.