002 - If You're Not Embarrassed, You Launched Too Late

[0:00] All right, so now, this time when I hit record, it was connected to a hard drive, which is really helpful for getting things to be able to be recorded. Do you want to push the button this week? Which button do I press? Two little buttons.

[0:54] to make it happen. I'm Jeff. That's Katy. And before we get started, I do want to say thank you to all of our sponsors. One thing I wanted to do when we did this episode this week was live stream the actual recording. I don't even know if I told you all this, but I went in to go do it, and I clicked the button, and it told me that first off, it needs to do some final approvals before it would let us. And if we don't have 1,000 subscribers, then it will only show it to, like, it's basically a private stream that I would have to, I guess, text out to everybody. Tell our family and friends, hey, watch us on the live stream. Yeah, right. And so. I would either need to get all of your phone numbers, or you can click subscribe and get us to 1,000, and then we'll be able to live stream after a few weeks after that. So anyways, yeah, do that. Click the thing, like the little button thing that popped up before this all did. Katy, should softball games in 106 degree heat be a federal crime? That's my question for you to start this thing off. Yeah, it was pretty toasty. Our daughter had a softball game, and I think Jeff and I, by the end of it, looked like, we had been swimming in the swimming pool, and I have some bad news. Oh, okay. We have another game in about two hours,

[2:10] but it's going to be less hot. Okay. So that's good. I thought it was going to be actual news to me. I already did know that, being that we have to record this, like, exactly at an hour. So if you're looking at the play, like the little, how far are we in, and there's more than an hour, just that's how late we're going to be. We're going to be for a softball game later today. Let's just rain it out. But yeah, so I just, man, that was miserable, and I have never, like, I've tried to will our little umbrella to give us, like, enough shade to not die. We didn't plan well. Yeah, so we had, yeah, Katy. It was just a baby umbrella. Well, and it, like, I don't know why it's also legal to sell umbrellas. With, like, the stem that's, like, 18 inches. I don't, not even that. Like, it was about this far. And so, like, trying to hold that while also giving both of us shade, like, getting the right angle. And the sun was brutal. There were no clouds. It was brutal. But such is life. It was cute. We survived. It was cute watching the girls play softball. And nearly die. And yeah, they were also on the struggle bus as well.

[3:25] Yeah, they were, they were well and properly over it, just like we are with this intro. Okay. Okay. So, we had some stuff happen this week. Yeah. So, in the App Store, we, and Play Store, so I think we actually have some things in the App Store pending. Yeah. And, but then we had approvals in the Play Store. Yeah, Google did a good job of getting theirs. Things quick. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Google. So, we have some apps available now. And how was that whole experience getting things in the Google Play Store? And all of those things. Did I say that right? Or did I say that wrong? I don't know that there's a right or wrong way to say anything. So, you're good there. I want to say, like, the, really, the main thing I'm excited about, as we've kind of gone through and built some of these things, is having the apps available on all the platforms. You know, the desktop versions of them. So, this is, if you're not into, like, software stuff, the next, like, five minutes, you might just want to skip past, because it's going to be super boring. But we'll get to some interesting stuff that's more broadly applicable. But my goal, as a person who uses, like, Mac and Windows and Linux and Android and

[4:40] iOS, like, I want something to be available on all those things. And that's a real rare thing to have. But, like, that does mean, like, the road is a bit long to get those things to exist and not suck. And then, you know, actually fit the vision of what's going on. And that's kind of what you had when you started out down that path. And so, the thing that then you have to do is go through app approvals. And then, you know, there's always some back and forth. And you had some back and forth. But now, you know, we've gotten to a point where, you know, some of this stuff is out and live in the world. And one of those, it was, like, really early on in kind of the Bravely journey. But it was our to-do app. Yeah. Which is kind of a fun thing. So, I'll do this for all you software not interested people. If you haven't skipped already five minutes ahead, if so, man, you sure missed it. But I do think the to-do app stuff is an important topic to cover. And actually something that as I continue to be a do-all-the-things person, a thing that I need to do more diligently.

[5:57] And so, maybe this is, like, a lot. Live on air, Jeff works through how he plans to actually do the thing that he would like to do with everyone. But I know, for me, when I feel most in control of what my day-to-day is, and honestly, like, keeping anxiety lower, is if I am using a system to keep track of all the stuff that I have to do. And so, I was, I don't know, a very young Jeff when I first started. So, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was. And I, I just want to say, like, of course, shameless plug. You can go to bravely.dev and go, go check out to-doingly. It's our to-do app. But you can do this with many different to-do apps. Like, I used Todoist for the longest time. And there's just certain things that I have always wanted it to do slightly differently that I am excited to be able to introduce that and how we do things and make it a little bit more flexible in a couple different ways. The, the thing about getting things done, like the whole methodology, though, is

[7:12] you take stuff that comes up. And if it's not something that you can just do in the, like, immediate right now, and it needs to be deferred till later, is just. So you just plop that stuff in and goes into, like, an inbox. And you just know that that is going to be something that we'll address later. And then if that, if that is something that you are not doing, you know, the thing, you know, to, to go back to what I said, like, the, the, the, when I feel the most on top of things or I feel, you know, the lower end of the anxiety spectrum, it's because I, I have that system. When I don't have that system, it is, like, I'm trying to do it. I keep all these things in my head. Well, and I remember there's been a few times, even with your job and home life, you did feel so overwhelmed because you didn't have a tracking system in place. And this was way before we even considered building an app for it. But when you took the time to build, kind of structure your, your thoughts, it is a ripple effect. To how, not only how productive you can be, but also the anxiety part of it, too. Yeah. Um, I, I would say in, in leadership, uh,

[8:30] in my career, that's been one of the things that I've had the most, I don't know, it, it's been a very fulfilling journey on that. Because as a person who kind of went through that and found it, uh, you know, through, uh, you know, going through some of those trials, being able to help others through that, I've realized kind of a really common pattern. And, um, if you don't have this system in place, this is like, uh, I feel like I've seen this a hundred times. Basically how, what happens is, uh, you have a bunch of, a bunch of stuff. Like you, you have a very smart, capable individual and smart, capable individuals by, uh, by nature are like magnets for more and more and more and more stuff to get piled onto them. Which, uh, at first you solve by just working harder and harder and harder and harder. Eventually. It becomes a point where, uh, you become overwhelmed. And in those instances, um, what I've had the experience of doing is being able to say like, okay, um, I know you feel overwhelmed. Uh, we we're, we're talking through this. I think the, the thing that would help me understand what all you have on your plate is to write all this stuff down. And this is a very getting things done

[9:46] thing is to go through your head and I want you to write down all these things that you have to do. And when they do that, then we go through and like, okay, so which of all these things that we wrote down, do you need to get done today? And then it's like, okay, well, these three things have to get done today. Um, I need to get these, these couple things done, um, tomorrow. And then by the end of the week, at some point I do need to get, you know, these things done here. And you can like, you can see, like, as we're going through this exercise, the, like the realization, the light bulb. And then by the end of the week, at some point I do need to get, you know, these things done here. And then by the end of the week, at some point I do need to get, you know, these things done here. And then by the end of the week, at some point I do need to get, you know, these things done here. And then by the end of the week, at some point I do need to get, you know, these things done here. I did have 40 things that I need to keep track of, but I actually only need to care about six of them this week and three of them today. And when you are able to contextualize what I can work on today, what I need to get done today. And if it's only a couple or a few of things, then all of a sudden it doesn't really matter that you maybe do have 40 things over the next six months that you're going to have to care about. Um, you only have to worry about those handful of things and it becomes a lot less overwhelming. If just in the context of what I can work on right now, here's what I should know about and be able to put those other things out of your mind. But if you don't have a system, which I

[11:01] am, I am mediocre at right now at best, um, trying to, to be a little bit more diligent and, um, having the app out in the world is definitely a good reminder of that. But, uh, if you, if you don't have a good system, then you can't get those other 40 things out of your mind. If you're, you know, a particular type of individual, some people have some magic ability to put that on the shelf. Um, I, I know for me, uh, for, for stuff that is like hard and complicated and going to have to be figured out, that is like impossible. So for me to be able to put it on a shelf, I need to have trust in some system that I know that I'm going to come back to daily. And, and that's, that's the whole methodology of the, the, the to-do app that we made is you put things in the inbox. You know, that you're going to go back through and clear that thing out and make sure that it's either assigned to a project, um, or that it has a due date. And, and then, you know, like, okay, I put this date, so I know I'm going to see this on this date. So I don't need to worry about it right now. Right. And that, that alleviates a lot of, a lot of mental load that you have to go through in your day to day. Yeah. And one other part of the app that I wanted to touch on is we made a option. To be able to add friends or collaborate with others.

[12:17] And even for our marriage, we, I have found that to be really helpful because I am a person that I think every wife perhaps is this way that when you. Every one of the, wow, bold claims here. Katy making a statement for all women across the world. Yeah. And I'm watering out of my, I think it's allergies. So. So I'm having to. You're just getting emotional. Yeah. I'm getting really emotional about these to-do apps. Um, anyways, is one thing that I struggle with is when I have things I want you to be doing that's on the honey-do list and you have other ideas of how you want to spend your time. This allows us to get on the same page of what my expectations are for you to do. Um, so I don't think that's going to happen this week. And how you're going to get those done or vice versa of. I have all these things on my to-do app. Don't think that's going to happen this week. And me being understanding of that. Yeah.

[13:32] All I get. Sorry. As you're talking all I could think of. And I don't know if this specific thing happened, but versions of this happened, especially early on in our marriage. Uh, and by early on, I mean also in the last probably week. Uh, I would imagine. This is a pretty common thing, but like, I just remember like we were at our old house and working on, um, we, we had a berm that we had to build and just a whole bunch of heavy bricks. And then I swear you would, you would like find like, Hey, he looks like he's about to do a, like a whole bunch of this all at once. And he's going to be really, really tired. I'm going to do now is the moment I'm going to like introduce this new idea. Hey honey, when you're done with that. Also, I need you to come fix the chair. It's broke. It's like, I do not need to know about more things to do while I'm literally. I'm literally dying out in the heat, fixing the thing that was so hard and it's so funny because in my brain, I'm just thinking, Oh, it's a thing that needs to be done. It's like, I am your to do app that you just get to offload the, Hey, I just need to make sure that someone knows the chair needs fixed. I just need to get it out of my head. So I don't need to worry about it. Thanks a lot. Yeah. You're welcome. Well, I don't want you to have to feel like you're going to get too emotional. So we can. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. I, the next thing, my allergies chose a wonderful morning to hit me hard. Um, so we do have the, um, the Sydney marathon coming up, which we'll talk

[14:49] about a little bit more as it gets closer. I think we have, I don't know, seven weeks or something like that. Oh, so close, which means we need to get some long runs in babe, but if you can make it not be a thousand degrees outside. Yeah. We both had really crappy runs this past week of training and both of us had to really push through getting through them with the heat. It's really hard to have marathons in August and September during the summer months, but we both pushed through them and you want to talk a little bit more about that, the mind's shift and how. Yeah. I mean, we can kind of condense the next two things into one block if you like. So, um, you know, we also had our Utah valley marathon that we ran a few weeks ago and it was also equally terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Um, altitude and running, uh, apparently if you're from the flat lands, uh, that could be a bit rough. And we came in so optimistic to Utah thinking we were both going to PR and knock it out of the park. And that was not the case. Yeah. At all. Uh, we, we haven't even really talked about this, but I, I, I am curious now

[16:05] that it is a few weeks in the rear view mirror. Like when you look back at that experience or look back at, you know, some of the crappier runs in the last few days, whether it being a thousand degrees, what, what would you say you take away from the, I mean, it sucks to call you finishing a marathon, a failure, but like in a lot of ways it felt very failure, like, uh, especially in the moment. Yeah. So as you look back at those things, like anything you take away, uh, like that you carry forward from those. Well, I think for one, it's the memories, the experience of getting. I have the, I have an opportunity to push my body to that point. And I know that not everybody gets that chance. Um, so framing it as a blessing that I have a body that can do this really hard thing. Um, and I think another really fun part of Utah was we brought our kids and, um, our, and the grandparents. Shout out to my parents. Parents for watching the kids so much. Um, and letting them see us in it and see

[17:20] us push through something really hard. And obviously when we saw them at random points in the race, they didn't know we were hurting so bad. Um, but seeing us finish something, even when it sucked and persevering through that, I think, and I don't know. Just having the kids there was so fun. I loved it. I thought giving them hugs through the race was just such a sweet thing. Yeah. Yeah, it was, I don't know if I answered your question the best, but those were, yeah, I'll, I'll be honest. I got a little distracted when you were talking about kids and then we heard them upstairs and like, it's like, man, I wonder if episode two is going to be the time we have a kid invasion. I mean, it's going to like, it's literally, it's going to happen. We are going to have a kid and we just have to decide at that point. Do we edit that out? Or do we just embrace it? I'm pretty like, this is real life. I'm pretty anti edit on this podcast, um, because we have about 600 trillion other things to do, but depending on the state of the child, that may be the thing that dictates whether or not, um, that we are, maybe we're legally required to edit these things out. Um, I, I'd say for, for myself, the thing that I, I, I take away is that not tying

[18:39] the, um, not tying the outcome. To the validity of the journey, right? Because it's a really good point. The, and this is applicable to business. This is applicable to things that you're trying to change about yourself. And this is certainly applicable in a sport like running, uh, which I, when I look back at that, the thing that I am most proud of, um, even on the races that do go well, um, I I'm, I'm proud that I showed up for the day to day grind of the thing. And, and ultimately, you know, if I ever am going to have a good marathon, um, it is going to be on the heels of showing up every single day and, and doing what I need to do to make that happen. Because consistency matters so much and showing up and, and having that discipline is so important and it's hard and it takes time to build that. I don't think it's something that happens quickly. It's definitely a thing. It's definitely a thing that happens with showing up day by day, one at like one time, once at a time. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm still laughing because we're just hearing our children.

[19:55] I'm hearing mom, mom, mom. So it's, it's probably going to be this podcast episode. So this is why we need the, uh, we need the subscribers. So if you haven't already, please subscribe. Because if we get a live stream, we can tell our kids to watch the live stream and they can know what's going on. Cause right now they just have to hear us yelling around. It's like a stampede upstairs right now. Yep. Um, so the, but we're going to, we're going to power through, I believe in us. It's the day-to-day commitment right now. The day-to-day commitment requires trying to turn off the ADHD brain. It's not going to be a perfect scenario. No, it's not. Um, yeah, it's, but like to go back to it, it really, the, the, the necessity of enjoying that, that grind and like in the moment, the, the, it is rough. Uh, but like when you look back at a hard week of training or you look back at a hard week of like, like really powering through a bunch of, you know, app work or getting something changed on the website and helping the onboarding flow for people who are new customers or something like that. Yeah. To enjoy that grind is what turns something from an aspiration to something that is like, you can, you can see it at

[21:11] the end of the, end of the tunnel. Yeah. I think too. Um, I think it was Robin Arzon, um, that said it, but you have survived every one of your hard days. Yeah. You've seen, you've seen the other side of it. And I think that's something too, that when I heard that, I was like, that's really insightful. And just solid, like you've survived every single one of your hard days. And I know some days are way harder than others, but even when you're in a hard run and we've talked about that is we, we will be done. Like it will, it will finish one step after another, but it is hard. Yeah. And I don't want to like minimize how hard it is in the grind. Yeah. Definitely moments of, uh, trying to figure out like, like, how do I, how do I live with my, my brain in this body that is going through this right now? And, um, that, that realization, like if I can survive for the next 60 seconds or the next five minutes, um, and I can string enough of those together, then I

[22:28] will finish at some point. I will take the final stupid step of this marathon. Yeah. Even though right now I feel like I would like nothing more than to sit in one of these lawn chairs that are from the spectators along the route. And it was so hot to the run. It was, it was just a little bit cruel thing about marathons is when you start, usually it's like absolutely pristine, beautiful weather. And then it's just a game of like, as you go in distance, uh, first off, of course you, you know, if you run 18 miles, you're going to be. Quite, quite tired. Um, at best. And you're pushing yourself because you're trying to run quick. Yeah. And, and so, but you also have, yeah, it's getting hotter and hotter as the day goes on. And, uh, it just, yeah, it becomes more and more unsustainable and we do this for fun. This is the thing that we like doing. This is the hobby. Yeah. I actually, um, had a question come up in my head, Jeff, with what you said, and I think it's applicable to a lot of what we're going to talk about. Is, and things that I think that you have experienced, but can you talk through tools and things that have helped you to

[23:44] what you said, discipline your mind? How, how do people do that? How do you discipline your mind? What are some ways that people can do that? Yeah. I mean, I talked about it last week about. You know, kind of trying to convince your algorithm. Uh, like if you are a person who is going to scroll on your phone and you like, you're not trying to solve that problem right now, then at least make that be more productive. Um, so like that, you know, if there is a particular thing that you're trying to go down, whether it be running or starting a business or what have you, um, you know, surrounding your things, uh, surrounding your things, surrounding yourself with things from, um, that genre or that topic or people that you aspire to be. I think that, that at least makes that be more productive, probably not the most productive use of your time. Uh, I've mentioned buying books, um, and listening to things. Um, I would say, uh, one thing that I've found tremendously helpful and it's kind of like a, a dying breed of people who do this, but take the time to write stuff out, um, whether that be type it out or write it on a notebook.

[24:59] Um, but I think taking time to be with your own thoughts. Helps you realize some of the things that maybe you wouldn't notice about why you are going down a certain path. Uh, if you hadn't take the time to like, try to articulate to yourself. Um, if, if you don't take the time to articulate to yourself, um, why you're going down a certain path or why do you have these feelings that you're having? Why are you overwhelmed? Then you're just going to keep going down it. Um, like whatever direction that you've been headed down, you're just going to keep doing it. Um, so to break. Out of that cycle, you have to do something that, that causes some sort of realization about yourself that like, Hey, I, I'm going down this, but I don't want to do that because I enjoy this thing more. And, um, and some of that requires making a statement that may not be entirely true at the time, but you, you have to be willing to do something. And this is kind of a thing we talked about last week and we'll probably talk about for the. End of time is sometimes you have to do stuff before it makes sense. And if you want to be a person who wants to write a book someday, you have to start writing a book with no, like the

[26:15] first time you write a book, you're going to start down that journey without having written a page of a book before, like the first time you try, that's just like by definition, that's going to be true. And that's a crazy thing to go down and do. But that's the. Only path forward. And so if that's something that you want to do, um, you're going to have to become a person who is a writer. You're gonna have to call yourself a writer. You're gonna have to surround yourself with a people who you want to be like, I talk about that algorithm thing. Like there are plenty of writing influencers, for example. Um, if you're going to be a writer, that should be what your algorithm is. Cause a lot of writers, especially as they're getting started out, are going to have those sorts of things is how they fill their mind and they're going to get ideas and. Inspiration from those people. Um, but, but yeah, I, I don't know what, what have you experienced with yourself with that? Um, I think there is. Did I answer your question? Um, yes. I mean, I think a little bit, but I had a couple other parts I'd be interested to like prod you on, but we can go. Or do you want me to answer?

[27:31] Yeah, you, you do your answer. Um, I think writing things down journaling, which, uh, I would love to get back into the habit of doing, it would be great. Um, because I think when, and I, I am more of a very traditional with a journal and handwriting till my hand starts to hurt type of person. Um, but I think that when you. Take the time to. Write it down. It just adds the intention. It gives it more intention for you. Um, but like you said, I think when you have, you surround yourself with that identity that you are trying to identify yourself as, it really helps you buy in to what it is that you're trying to do. Have you ever. Um, what's your, what's your experience been on like imposter syndrome when you show up to do a thing for the first time that you want to, you want to be the sort of person who does X. Um, and so you have to be doing it for

[28:46] the first time. Um, what, how, how big does imposter syndrome play for you personally? Oh my goodness. Bad. I don't even feel equipped to hardly talk about this because this is genuine. Genuinely somewhere. So I don't, I struggle. I don't understand how that, I wouldn't have guessed that was as big of a thing because like you show up to, uh, like you, you have like book groups that you've shown up to that are like a bunch of people that you've never met before. And you just find those things and go do them, which, uh, like I, that sounds like crazy person activity. I would never in a thousand years do something. I think it's. And maybe defining it a little bit more granular is I feel imposter syndrome when it's something I'm leading. If I'm in charge, I always feel like I'm not going to be doing it well enough, nor have the experience to even consider leading something. And I struggle with that a lot. Well, I mean, that's fair, but like when you, so, so do you not feel imposter?

[30:03] Syndrome when you show up at a, at a, you know, a book club or you show up to some cycle class for the first time and you've never been there before. And a little bit, but I am more excited for the fun of it and meeting new people. I think that's, I don't, I think I don't feel imposter syndrome because I'm, I don't know. It's enjoyable to me. And, but if I, it's something I am leading or trying to. Well, even for example, Jeff, uh, the company and trying to fill in on roles. Cause there's so much to do and a lot of hats. Yeah. And I'm, I don't know how to do it, but so I do feel a little bit of imposter syndrome. Like I'm not going to know what I'm doing on this social media thing. I don't know what to post, but like you said, it's just, you dive in and you're like, I'm going to do this. And you try it. And if it doesn't work, it's fine. You pivot and you try again. And eventually you do that enough times and it, you get good at it. You get better at it. And honestly, it kind of even comes back to what we talked about last week with failure and how that makes me feel.

[31:22] And you feel, and I'm definitely still growing here. This isn't something where I, I feel super equipped to have much good advice for people. Well, I think you're. You're good at this, especially on the just willingness to dive into a thing like I'm, if we, let's say I told you, or I don't know, we just, we were watching something and then there was like an ad and then we got convinced that we need to become pickleball people or not pickleball people. Um, how, how much pickleballing would you need to do before you would show up to couples pickleball night and feel. I mean, comfortable enough to do it, to, to do that, like from zero to a thousand hours of pickleball, how much pickleball would you need to play before you would show up to couples night? I would be fine first night. It's because something like that, just hear me out. Something like that doesn't like add that imposter syndrome feeling. It's more of like, um, if I were to. Lead a book club, for example, people come to our house, people lean on me for

[32:37] questions on what we've read. Um, one thing I've actually had to really work through with my own career is I do project management. And when I first got hired on, I was so nervous to lead projects. Oh yeah. I've seen this in you. Yeah. And I wasn't confident that I would know. So first of all, the questions to ask, how to lie, like how to lay out the timeline. Um, and I, I literally told my, my boss that I would, I didn't know if I was going to be able to fill that role. And, but it was situations like that, which now I am leading projects were good. I, of course. Yeah. I, I don't feel imposter syndrome anymore. It's so funny. Cause I, the thing I would say to you is of course you could do those things. Like that's, that's no big deal, but I would, I would answer the pickleball couples night question as I, I don't know what the number is, but I can tell you it's, I would need to go more than I had more than 10 times alone. Just you and I pickleball practice before

[33:54] I would feel even remotely like, okay, like, okay, I can, I can show up to all these other people with their paddles and be one of one of them. Maybe they won't notice that I've only done it 10 times. Uh, but yeah, it's so interesting because it's different. I think there's, maybe there's different levels of imposter syndrome or there's different. Yeah. Well, cause if you ask me, Hey, do you want to go talk on stage and give some, you know, hour long presentation? Oh, uh, I would be like, yeah, sure. Why not? I'm so not okay with that. Yeah. So it's interesting. It's kind of like figuring this out right now, but yeah. I think how I would summarize that, though, is you're going to have things that are uncomfortable and hard and that you feel weird doing. And to get good at it, whether that be pickleball practice with your best friends or your willingness to be a project manager and take the lead on things or to start running or to write a book, is all those things. If you have big dreams and you have big aspirations, there's going to be times

[35:11] where steps along that path are going to require you to. Do something that feels real weird and you have to become willing to dive into that weird and also be someone who once you do it enough or you had a handful of times or even go through it once where you're like really mindful about what you're doing is realizing that feeling in yourself of like, I feel I feel uncomfortable doing this. This feels crazy. Why are we doing? And knowing that on the other side of that is realization that you were capable of figuring this out or maybe you go into that and you learn something to to not do next time or that you need to change on how you want to do that next time you go to couples pickleball practice and but that it's still OK. Like even if you fail, that it's going to be even easier next time to show up because, you know, going from zero to one is hard. We're going from one to two is not nearly as hard. Right. Yeah. So one question that I had thought of after our episode last week is and honestly, I think it's relevant to what

[36:29] we're kind of talking about right now. And maybe then after this, we can segue into something else. But with change. And Jeff, I think in your experience, you have experienced the most dramatic changes in a life over the past three years. It's been a pretty wild. Yeah. So how how did you do? And I think maybe sobriety might be a good one to talk on with this. But obviously, I think you can apply it to other things, too. But how did you move from day to day to week to week to month to month? How did you keep taking those steps forward? And I know. And I think the thing that's so raw to me was the sobriety journey. And I'm happy to talk more about that and the emotional side of that for me as your spouse and what that felt like for me. But we don't have to get into that today. But what how did you do that? Because I do remember with you like not drinking anymore. And honestly, when you made that decision, I made that decision. I made that decision, too, because I that was just something that I decided if my husband has this struggle, there is no

[37:46] reason why I need to be bringing it even in our home. And that was just my own personal decision. So we really kind of did it at the same time. So but what and I'm getting I'm getting off track a little bit. But how did you move? How did it feel easier? How did it move into? OK. This is the day I'm doing this. Like you said, hard stop today. This is the day. Yeah. To moving to the next day, to moving to the next day, to that being the next week. How can you talk about that journey a little bit? Yeah. Well, I mean, for starters, like it was something that I tried to do. I mean, for years of of of day day ones. And the thing that started the shift. And really like to even get any amount of traction the first couple of times was the times where I decided like, OK, this is this is done. Like I'm not it's not like a thing I want to do someday. I'm willing to commit to this now. And even that didn't stick at first. Took a handful of tries. So the the initial part of that is it's a heck of a journey. And just you just have to not give up and

[39:01] keep finding your way through that. How did you work through the like addiction part of that? How did you work through the like addiction part of that? How did you work through the like addiction part of that? How did you work through the like addiction part of that? How did you work through the like addiction part of that? How did you work through the like addiction part of that? How did you work through the like addiction part of that? The how did you work through that? Because obviously you wanted to take a drink. You wanted to not wake up and run. How can you talk through that a little bit? Well, when I the only thing that worked was that I didn't want to drink, honestly. Like, yeah. So the I mean, certainly there's like the physiological parts of that. But it's never in my in my experience. And I'm sure that this is different for others. It is more of the relief of a psychological discomfort. That is the prompting. And that can be overweighed by what you really want to do. And so it honestly ties together to like, how do you make how do you make day to turn into day to day three to day four to week seven to week 52? And I I would say it's very, very similar. It just becomes a heck of a lot easier once you get a little time on you.

[40:18] Just like in the same way, like if if I asked you, how is it that you continue to run every day? I would assume it is because that's what you do. Or like, why do you work out on a given week? It's just because it's what you do. Yeah. It's just my lifestyle at this point. Yeah. And I mean, it's it's a little bit fake it. So you make it kind of thing where you you do have to just decide that that's the identity that you want to adopt. But the the fact of it is, is if you do surround yourself with that information, you do surround yourself with with those influences on your mind that, hey, this is this is not a thing. Like, I want to be the sort of person who lives this sort of life. Then it just it follows like your behavior will follow that. Like, if you can change your beliefs on the thing. Then it's just a matter of living your life and go through that. Knowing that you have silly monkey brain up here that will revert to what is most comfortable and it may need occasional reminders that, hey, I'm going to listen to this podcast episode, even though I don't feel like I have any sort of, you know, temptation to do anything differently.

[41:34] I'm just going to go ahead and listen to it because I know that it's a good. Influence on my life to to have someone talk about, you know, their own journey through something and it worst case scenario, it's a hour of time or however long and best case scenario that keeps you on, you know, on the path that you want to go down. I think another really good tool to use on this is surrounding yourself with it in the sense of like put sticky notes on your bathroom mirror. Put notes on your whiteboard. And I know at one point when you were losing weight, you had it displayed on a computer as a number. So surrounding yourself with really, I don't know, easy ways to see it, even in the day to day, not even just like on your phone, but you get a like I said, a sticky note or make it around you. And every real way that you can, I think. Yeah, I'm trying to say. And with addiction things, it's especially true because marketing exists.

[42:50] You are if you're not being intentional about having the influence to, you know, hey, this is the sort of lifestyle I want to live. And, you know, that that's not going to include alcohol. And here's all these things that I'm going to listen to or read or look at or see. There's billions of dollars that get spent on alcohol advertising. So you're going to see it like there will be bombardment the other direction. And so, yeah, I would 100 percent acknowledge like there is a absolute necessity to make it be a visible part of your of your day to day because you will walk through life and have counter versions of that. In fact, that's very likely how that has become such a. Rooted in part of what, you know, whatever the specific thing is, why that's become something that is a part of your life to begin with. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So we also have a cool thing where we have our dogs barking upstairs, which also helps so much with trying to keep the train of thought going. Real salient point about a very serious topic. And it's like, how do I talk through that? How do I what sticky notes do I need to block out dog barking?

[44:07] In the background, which I hope these mics are good enough that people don't hear that. But I certainly do.

[44:17] So any any other things on change or any of that, like questions that you would have that maybe the answers to might help someone out there? Oh, I'm definitely one to I want a physical way to apply it to my life. So I think anything else that you have for people that want to make changes, that's a physical thing they can grab would be great. But I also think we've we've covered some things on this one. Yeah, I mean, applicable. I don't even have it on on bravely dot dev like the website, but we do have a sobriety tracker. Yeah, like that's a that's the sort of journey that you want to go on, you know, in talking about ways to just make it readily apparent, like on on my phone right now. Like I have. Like, if I open it up and like I have the number of days, yeah, one thousand ninety eight days and when you are, you know, I don't look at that every day, but I do see it occasionally. And so like it has like a little widget that you can do or you can get like notifications and the early days. That's like super, super helpful. Yeah. And I, I had that through other means. I didn't have an app at the time, but I

[45:33] am like, you know, as I talk through some of these things and I internalize what that would have looked like for me, like if I could go through it again or if I could. Wow. Nope. If I had to go through it again, what would I what tools what I want at my disposal? And that's one of them that I've made. And you know that I know that other people have have utilized that. So if that's something that you would like to take advantage of, definitely I could check that out. Horizon sobriety tracker. So it actually has a little inspiration from the same thing. That is the name of this pod. And we can actually pop it in the description if that. If so, people can find it easily. Yeah. If you want to do that, Katy, for the people, you do that. So Katy has signed herself up for some post-production work. Yeah, we'll put that on our to do app, bring it a full circle. So one thing I, I, I'm I'm a big sucker for quotes. You are. I am a big, I'm I'm a sentimentalist at heart for sure. And so. So I'll probably occasionally on this podcast bring a quote, and I'm curious about what you think about this one. So this is Reid Hoffman. He's the LinkedIn founder. I don't really know if he's a problematic person. I didn't do too much reading into it, but

[46:48] he's definitely been involved with a handful of bigger tech things over the years. And I think his quote, even if he's a problematic person, his quote carries a lot of truth. But the quote is, if you're not embarrassed at the first version of your product, you've launched too late. So. You know, if you reflect on stuff that we've built, you know, I certainly feel that way, but you know, that, that I think is true for many things in life. If you're not embarrassed by the first thing that you are willing to let other people in on, you're probably letting them in on the thing too late. But what are, what are your thoughts? Oh, gosh, I didn't, I was not prepared for this one. So I'm going to, it was in our show notes. Can you do not read our show? Um, that one's hard. Cause obviously you don't like to feel embarrassed or that you've made something silly. Yeah. Um, but I get, I get what it's, where it's, he's coming from, um, with, and I think again, it just rounds back up to like being okay with failure, um, showing your ideas to people and making it a reality.

[48:06] Yeah. I think that the, cause there's some things that I feel no shame feeling like, ah, I don't care if people know that I'm not good at this thing. Um, but the, I think that's unique though. Well, I, I was going to say, I think the funny part about that is it's almost like it, it, it has an inverse relationship with skill. So, um, you know, my, my back. Like professionally, like the thing that I got really good at is, you know, writing SQL. So database stuff. Um, and fun fact for basically anything like that, especially technical stuff is, uh, no one person knows all of the things you just get really good at figuring out how to figure out how stuff works. And do you feel like part of that too, is asking questions? For sure. Yeah. And, um, but like what, what it came down to, what, what, what I mean by this is, and when I, when I'm talking about like an inverse relationship, the more you do that and the more comfortable in your own skill that you become, the more

[49:21] willingness you have to be like, yeah, I have no idea how this works. I know I can figure it out, but like we can, I don't care if you know that I've never done this particular form of red reg X expression or whatever. Um, and. But when you are starting off down a journey like that, it's like, oh, I don't, I don't want them to know that I don't, I've never done this piece of it before. I have no idea. And, uh, and that's hard. And so, but like everybody starts from the same place. Like we, none of us are born like I have done a thousand podcast episodes. Welcome to earth alien. Uh, no, we're every podcast has started at zero subscribers. Uh, zero listens. That's just how it works. There's no other path through it. Um, so you have to feel silly. The thing is, how long do you stay unwilling to feel silly? And I think the, the quicker you can be okay, getting that out into the world and feeling silly, the quicker you can become someone who's highly skilled at a task. It's true. And cause just to, you know, as we, as we kind of talked about, uh, before,

[50:38] and, and we've had plenty of conversations offline is the, you know, we're talking about this podcast. We'll just use it as an example. I actually think that's a really great example. And I hadn't thought about it. So we could have planned four months, not four months, four months to how, how, how can we make this be as good as humanly possible? And when we started, we would still be complete garbage when we started there's like, and so if that's true and I, I genuinely do, I think it's, I think it's a hundred percent true. If you have not done a thing, uh, especially when it's something creative or something technical, the first pass at it is going to suck. Like you will not be as good as you're going to get to when you start. That's just how it works. There's, there's no shortcut past it. And, and I, I even know this from doing, I know it's true for technical things too, because the, the most, the, the, the tail I've seen played out again and again and again with the stuff that I've done with stuff that I know other people have done is you build a thing and you spend all this time

[51:53] and effort. Let's say it takes you five weeks to, to get something to be like, okay, I feel like this actually now works when you get to the point where you're like, okay, I get this thing to now. But I'm okay with how it works. The, the thought that's hard to even get out of your head is like, I need to throw this thing away and start completely fresh. It would be a thousand times better. The, but you'll, if you try to like nail it on that first try, you're just never going to, because you're going to get so much smarter as you build it. And, and we will get so much better at doing this silly thing where we talk to each other while dog dogs are barking and kids are stomping around. And I don't know, I'm surprised we haven't heard a blender go off at this point. But the, the thing is, is like, we will a hundred percent get better at doing this just by doing it. You will get a hundred percent better at running just by running. There's no amount of preparing to run. That's going to make it not suck at the start. Like it's just going to suck. You know, it makes not running, suck running, running, makes not running, not suck. And the, so yeah, the, to go back to the quote, um, and the reason why I. I liked it is, um, it's not, you know, if

[53:10] you're not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you've launched too late. You are going to be embarrassed by the first version of your product. Even if you spent a little, like if you spent, if we spent 10 years on making this first episode, um, that we, that we made and, and you put it out into the world, um, you're still going to feel like, uh, like, uh, oh man, I could have, I could have made it. I could have made this better. Like that, that's never going to go away. Yeah. And, and so if you are holding on to some hope that it's not going to like suck, whatever it is. Um, and that, that's true for funny things. Like I'm just talking about with this podcast, but it's also true of, of like a journey through sobriety. Um, there's no amount of preparing for it. That's going to make it not suck at the start. It's just going to like, it's just going to be hard. And you have to figure out how to make your way through it and you're going to learn a lot of lessons along the way. And, and yeah, so, um, but yeah, in this instance, I think if you, if you're seeking to not be embarrassed, you're going to launch later than you should have, whatever the thing is. And I think honestly too, that's kind of

[54:27] why it took us so long to start this. You've been asking me to do this for a really long time. I mean, off and on for years now. Yeah, yeah. And honestly, and I think, um, we have much more understanding of things now where we are in life, um, that we have maybe more to talk about, but yeah, I think that quote brings even this whole podcast experience for me. Cause I am sure in a year when I go back and watch that first episode, I might cringe a little bit, but we would have been a year. We are in of experience and that's really cool to think about. Yeah. And, and the, the fun part about all this, uh, once you get over that embarrassment, once you get down the road, being able to look back and honestly, this is one of my true joys in life. Uh, and this is why I highly recommend journaling on whatever path you're down, uh, because you may like we humans, generally speaking, you feel like the way that. Your brain works now is the way that it's always worked. There's nothing that will jar you out of that though, more than reading stuff from

[55:44] your past and realizing how far you've really come. Yeah. That's a really cool thing. Because I know like things that I wrote down and if I could have known that the, that this was going to be the outcome, I would have been like, oh my gosh, this is everything that I ever dreamed of. And, but when I wrote down that that was my goal, that that was my aspiration, it felt like I was writing down the words of a crazy person. I remember like there, uh, and I won't go into the specifics, but like there was a person in our, our young lives, uh, as like teenagers who ran a marathon from that time forward. I've always thought like, man, I, I want to be the sort of person someday that can run a marathon. And, and then when we start, when I started down my running journey, uh, and actually started giving running a proper try. And I signed up for a half marathon. Um, I, I wanted to do that. And, and, but it felt like, honestly, the half marathon felt like crazy. And when I did the half marathon, a full marathon felt like crazy. Full marathon still feels a little crazy. Full marathon still feels a little crazy. Um, it probably never will not feel.

[57:02] Yeah. And ultra marathoners are my heroes in life, I think. Yeah. That's a, another breed of, uh, glutton for punishment. Yes. Um, but the, uh, where was I going with this? So the man I have, uh, no, it's okay. You were talking about, um, somebody that you knew. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. We're back on track. Um, but yeah, you, you look, you look back after you've kind of gone down this path and, and you're like, wow, I, I did that. And the, the reason why that's cool. And the reason why I think you should journal is because. Because when you go back and you do realize that, and I do think it's really hard to have that realization. If you don't have some sort of record of what, what you were thinking in that moment that you, that you used to think it wasn't possible, but here you are. Uh, when you realize you've made that shift and then you just become like, well, I can tell you right now, like, uh, I'm not worried about Sydney. I mean, it'll, it'll, it'll be hard, but like, I know I can do it. Yeah. It's no big, like in real, like, honestly, if we didn't even train, like, I know, I know for a fact we would finish that stupid marathon. Um, and to be no, so nonchalant about something that used to be like, if only one day I could only to now like, ah, well, whatever. Like, like it's fine. We'll finish.

[58:17] No big deal. But to see that shift in my own mind and my own thinking about something that I thought was so impossible makes me realize that stuff that I feel impossible about today. Guess what? If I, if I take the steps down the path, then someday that's going to feel the same way. That marathon felt for me, you know, you know, through my adulthood and, and then, you know, on, on the finish line of that half marathon where I'm like, maybe, maybe I should do a full next. That's so cool. Yeah. It makes me definitely be held accountable to writing things down. So. Yeah. So they'll take that as another takeaway, everybody. Um, and, and like, honestly, uh, you know, if, if I can leave you with one thing, it is write it down and start today. Um, and, and, and then if you, if you. If you go down this path and you could figure that out, then you're going to learn a ton of lessons that you can apply to other things in your life. All right. So we are to the housekeeping section of our show. Okay. Uh, we've made it and we've, uh, gotten to the part where I need to, uh, remind you that if you haven't already, uh, hit subscribe. This is very important. Uh, like I said, we have the kids upstairs and they need to be able to have the live stream to tell them what is happening with their crazy parents.

[59:33] And to do that, we need a thousand subscribers. So I do need you to do that. Um, also if you, uh, would like anything from us, that's not what I meant to say, but if you would like to get in contact with us for anything, uh, email us at build horizons.com. Katy's going to put that in the show notes too, while she's in there editing things, I guess. Um, I'll sign you up for other things. Um, but yeah, if you have questions, topics to cover, uh, or just want to say hi, um, or tell us that we missed the mark on something or misspoke by all means. Please hit us up. And with that, Katy, I'm turning it over to you to sign us off yet again. Okay. Um, keep building and we are cheering you on. You're really committing to that one. You're we're still doing that. I guess, I guess that's what we're going.