001 - From Hating Running to Marathons: How to Change What You Believe About Yourself

[0:00] all right you ready i think so but for real this time for real oh got to click the things click the buttons be ready and three two one

[0:49] to make it happen i'm jeff that's katy and katy to kick things off today i have a question what because i mean we're gonna we're gonna do a little bit of a show about how to make it happen and i'm gonna we're gonna do a little bit of a show about how to make it happen and i'm gonna do a little bit of a show about how to make it happen and i'm gonna do a little bit of a show about how to make a show about how to make it happen and i'm gonna do a little bit of a show about how to make a show about how to make it happen and i'm gonna do a little bit of a show about how to make a show about how to make it happen and i'm gonna do a little bit of a show about how to make we're gonna get into the like what even this is um and why we're doing it uh and and other things about our crazy selves and crazy lives but before we do that i feel like we should answer a question who the heck are you who the heck am i um okay my name's katy as you know um so jeff you've been asking to do this for a while and it's tremendously out of my comfort zone so i just kept saying i don't think i need to do this but here we are we're starting a podcast so um i'm katy and um yeah i how much like how much detail should i go into with i mean i am i guess uh i guess right off the top so what are the the handful of things that you feel like like if you had to condense yourself down into a single list of five things what do you feel like those five things would be sure um okay we don't have to get too serious like uh but like what are the things you enjoy doing okay so yeah um so i have we or we

[2:05] we have two children um so i'm a mother and they're so fun kids are so much fun i love the ages that we're at right now i feel like you just blew past it so yeah we're married uh yeah we're married we've been married for 15 years we just hit our 15th um wedding anniversary yes yep um but yeah we have two kiddos and they're really fun and cool and um they are seven and nine nine almost ten almost double digits which is bizarre to my brain but yep such as life i know it goes fast you've uh you've ran for a long time yep um yeah sorry yeah just a few things about me too um i have um been running uh more for just like healthy lifestyle nothing too serious at all um and yeah i like to work out i think it's fun and i like to push myself see what i'm capable of and i know something that obviously as the intro showed like we've done some races together um kind of been on a little bit of a journey on that which i know we're gonna get way more into um i also i love reading books we love reading different books though yeah we'll we'll

[3:21] get into that i'm i'm sure um so i'll i'll do my part now so i'm jeff and i'm married to that one lots of uh lots of things that we will definitely want to get into on the pod but uh i me myself like i i've big aspirations uh i i am a creative person at heart i like making things i think uh that is like at the core of why i want to do this is i just i really have a lot of fun in the creative process um i think that there's a lot of stuff that i've learned uh through the course of my life on how to um to to make big changes to uh to make you know like like i said at the top you know picking picking that life that you want to lead and not just going down the path that you are going down because that's the path that you're going down and that's a path that uh that feels comfortable uh or that you've made comfortable uh it it's hard to make change but it's it's less complicated than i had thought and it's way more possible than i had thought especially a younger version of myself um as far as you know other things uh in the last few years i've become a runner um i i've gotten a lot healthier uh during that time

[4:37] i have a job that i love um and i but that said though like i i really love making things i love working so um you know a lot of what we've done with our business and um the things that surround that like that takes up a lot of time like i don't i used to play a lot of video games and stuff like that it's definitely like a thing i enjoy but not a thing that i have done in my life that i've done much of at all i mean other than like the occasional thing uh with our son um i really don't spend any time doing video games things like that where whereas i used to you know that was just kind of a thing to pass time um but yeah so right now my my time when i'm not at uh work work and all the things that that is my my hobby so to speak is also just working more uh which sounds crazy but this is like the most happiest season i've ever personally been the my life to date and i'm having a lot of fun doing it so while i do you know wake up and the first thing i do is work and the last thing i do to go before i go to bed is work um i i still am having a lot of fun um but yeah so i i guess to to transition us a little bit i i'd like to talk about um you know what why why it is that we're making this and you know why what

[5:55] are some things about this um that would help someone know like is this the sort of thing that i would be interested in listening to yeah i think that's definitely something like what does what does build horizons mean and how did we land on that and um what are things that we're going to be talking about like who are we making this for um i do think like you mentioned is change and making those big steps in your life kind of felt really hard and impossible um and you know i i know i'm guilty uh feeling very stuck and not able to make the steps or take the steps necessary to have big changes in my life and to build upon those and i do think that um i don't know especially watching you jeff and i know like as you said you're a really creative person and you love to create things which is part of the reason why we're being on the outside and watching you go through some building blocks of your life and changing so many things has been really cool and i do

[7:10] think i'm like i don't want to keep this story just for us like i think a lot of people could benefit from it so anyways yeah i i think like who are we making this for and um like who who will want to listen to this podcast yeah and i i mean you know if you're completely happy with what you're doing i'm going to be happy with what you're doing and happy and content with exactly where you are then this is probably not for you i mean because really what it is is uh you know i want to like when i look at myself in in five years from now what what do i how would i describe that and how would i how would i uh envision that being if if everything goes well or like you know what are some of the good outcomes that the next five years could bring and then it it's like how do i have that vision and then make that be reality and uh a lot of it is the the not sexy work of doing the the day-to-day and the process of doing it and falling in love with that um and and being okay with stuff that takes a long time to achieve and uh kind of being willing to do stuff that doesn't make a lot of sense in the moment and people might think you're crazy you might think that you're crazy um i know i certainly have felt that way at times uh but but what you what you get to is uh a place where where

[8:26] that's okay like i can work with my wife and we can do that sitting in our basement with this cool little thing that we built and and we can do that on episode one and right now it doesn't make a lick of sense spoiler like nothing makes a lick of sense when you're a first starting out um you know i i can uh just real quick i could i could share a little bit about like how i started running and uh i think what i'm talking about when in both on how to make it happen but um now you also what what the what the process feels like well and like i just want to say too like i am in general such a risk adverse person like i don't i don't like risk i like comfortable i like comfort zones um and even like really doing this this podcast together like is me building something here it's me um i mean i know you're going to get into your story and it'll be so interesting and fun to see where this

[9:41] goes like even for myself and um i know like right now we have so many things we're building on and have so much fun to talk about but yeah i think even as episode one like just understanding like this is what i'm building on and um uh typically like very risk adverse person stepping out and doing this thing with our husband so i think it'll be really fun to see that and like also like hearing what you've already managed to achieve through this process and this mindset of um i don't know i know you were going to get into running and but i feel like there's like so many ripple effects too of like how this mindset has like like literally changed your life changed our lives um but anyways yeah i would like talk about i always think it's so fun to hear your story of how you started running it is a little bit ridiculous but like i'm curious uh i don't know that i've asked this specifically to you before but like what what was the experience from your perspective when you said you were gonna run yeah okay well do you want me to just like jump right in yeah oh my gosh okay well i had so i've always like i said i've always been a runner but

[10:57] i've always just done like i've always been a runner and i've always been a runner and i've always been a runner little 5ks or maybe a 10k but 10k was like really pushing it for me and um but like in general i'd run a couple times a week a few times a week like three miles like just to stay like healthy and i have a lot of heart disease in my family so it was something like i've always been pretty mindful of of like okay i gotta i gotta be mindful of my cardiovascular health um but anyways so i had just signed up with a friend to do a half marathon for the first time and i was like i don't even think i had started training yet um but you were a little bit like skeptical of the amount of training that was gonna take like and like i had you know mentioned like oh my goodness like what would it be like to run a full marathon and you're like that would take way too much time like can you imagine how many hours of running you would have to do and i'm like yeah it would be a lot like that would be a lot what kind of crazy person would sign themselves up like like hey do you be running for like four hours a day or a week and and like i don't know not a day that would be crazy but um anyways so had just signed up i think like i just signed up i don't think i had like i don't know i can't really remember that you had just signed up yeah and so then i was

[12:14] working um from home like because as i do i work from home i didn't mention that in my little intro but you know not super relevant right yeah but i was working i just remember working and katy identifies as someone who works from home yes it's one of her top five yes one of my top five i don't even think i got through five but that's fine um one and a half anyways um so you came down and you were honestly kind of emotional and i do think we'll probably have some tears on this podcast eventually because jeff does he's very in touch you're just gonna out me like that yeah how did you just say that i'm very in touch with my emotions thank you you're welcome i'm very in touch with my emotions yeah um my cry um anyways so then i i don't know i just remember i was working and you came down you were a little emotional and you started telling me about a video that you would watch that had really inspired you and i think then we actually went and watched the video together and you were like i'm gonna start running and i'm like yeah and you were like i did it i i signed up for prairie fire and i was like because there's like

[13:31] different like races in prairie fire i'm like like the like the two mile or like the 5k you're like no the half marathon and i was like oh okay here we go like i was a little skeptical because i knew how much you hated running yeah i i mean and i did like viscerally hated running yeah pretty pretty lifelong advocate that uh people who run long distance or just endurance athletes in general are crazy people um still not entirely sure that that was a misheld belief um but yeah i i did it was um you know i i watched a random casey neistat video and uh it was about him running and i've always found the idea or the allure of like people who do that uh to be really fascinating like and i feel like inspired by it but i could never like picture myself as a person who would run like i i hated it i i remember a lot of times um like during the beginning days of the pandemic i was trying to lose a little bit of weight and i would go on the treadmill and if i could uh walk at a pace on a just enough of an

[14:49] incline that i could burn uh 100 calories per 10 minutes or something like that i can't remember what the output was what resulted in the amount of calories that i wanted to burn um and i i just it's like how could i achieve what i want to achieve in this case losing weight by doing the absolute least amount of physical effort humanly possible um like that was my mentality because anything beyond that was just unfathomably uncomfortable and unfathomably not what i was going to be doing um um but i always like i wanted to be the person who would do that like and i'll talk about that in a little bit like yeah um there's a big difference though between um wanting something and then actually pursuing that long term yeah um and so like uh you know there were times where i would want to be in shape or i'd want to work out and i would like for about as long as my willpower would last and sometimes that would be like a day sometimes that would be a week or a month um maybe typically though it was a lot closer to that than i would want to be in shape and i would want to be in shape um and so i would have all these big things and i would like you know like

[16:04] okay i'm gonna i'm gonna do this thing um but it wasn't actually aligned with my beliefs and my priorities and the things that i like actually uh like that that were a part of my identity it was just something that i wanted yeah um but i didn't want it uh in the way that i want to be laying around and being lazy and stuff like i i really wanted to do that more and so that's what i would do so i i watched this video uh and i'm like oh man i like i want to be the person who does this and so i saw myself up so there's like some commitment there i have some skin in the game right yeah um and and then i went on a run and i ran i think two and a half miles if i recall i'd have to go back and look at the the the recording of that run but i uh which we do have like yeah you had video yeah vlogged kind of the journey of this which i thought was so like vulnerable because like i'm i never remember thinking like oh i don't want him to like go back and look at these videos and like if he doesn't make it like and feel that regret but also like however many years

[17:20] what three years down the road i'm like oh my gosh i'm so glad i'm so glad we have those to go back and look at yeah and like to reflect on yeah it is cool like i think you have like every every single one of those miles at the beginning i have uh either the recording of like me running on the treadmill uh or i have you know the the recording on my watch as we went for a run um and stuff like that so i have a lot of data uh and a lot of um yeah a lot of that time is captured which is really really neat yeah um but yeah like i i ran that two and a half miles and i remember thinking like what the flying frick did i sign myself up for because i signed that i signed up for a half marathon yeah uh prior to actually running more than a single mile um and so when i went on that run it was like a really windy day um and it was truly miserable as running is like it is a miserable experience especially when you're first starting out oh it's yeah it's such a hard sport it's such a hard activity to just jump into literally and that was what you did there was no gosh i'm trying to even think like had you done anything that tough in years like maybe high school yeah i mean

[18:35] it had certainly been a long time yeah i was well and properly out of shape um but the the thing that i did though and like the the reason why i stayed with it was um you know i for one i had signed myself up for something and i'm a little bit stubborn and so uh you know i i'm going to try to follow through with something if I commit to it. And I do have that sense of obligation. And so even if it is as silly as like, well, I'm going to have wasted 120 bucks and feel silly to my wife, that's enough to at least get me part of the way there. But the other thing about that was I spent my free time became the pursuit of knowledge on running. How do people do, what do people do with running? How do they become good? What are the stuff, learning about shoes and fueling and really just surrounding myself with that knowledge. Because if you're a runner, those are the sort of things that runners do. They have some sort of knowledge about their thing. And so I poured myself into that. I found a

[19:52] couple of things online that I enjoyed following, found a podcast I like listening to. I read like, I don't know, probably 10 books. Yeah. You like fully immersed yourself. Fully immersed myself. And I've learned that lesson in myself on how do I change my identity? Or how do I change like my core beliefs? And I think too, I know- We're kind of talking about running, but you had, and you know, we're going to have lots of podcast episodes, but there had been a journey that you had been down already changing this about yourself. So this was something like you had done before. And so you knew it was possible. And one thing I think we really epically failed at like explaining to however many people watch this. Thousands, if not millions. Yeah. Right. So we have actually been together since I was 15 and Jeff was 16 years old, which I know is like not a normal thing. So I think like we have literally grown up together. So like I've seen so much of Jeff's journey. He's seen so much of mine. And so I know you mentioned

[21:09] that you're a very stubborn person. And so like, I can attest to that. Like you are a very stubborn person, but, but sometimes that is, has equaled to be a very, very stubborn person. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I guess to, to take a step back. So you know, at the, at the top of the top of the show, I talked about me being a creative person and I have big aspirations. And and so to add the context that Katy's talking about, I, I kind of numbed that through alcohol, like, and that became my default. So like, I have these big aspirations. I have all these things I want to do. I'm not able to make it happen. The thing that makes that feel better is this drug. And for, for many, many years. And so when I fixed that problem that was through very similar things I just talked about with running, which is like, yeah, I'm going to listen to podcasts. I'm going to read a thousand books because like I had, I had tried other paths through that. And it was, it really came down to like, what do I really like in my core believe? And I, I believed that I couldn't make that change. I believe that that was a part of me that like, that was unchangeable that it was immutable. And in reality, if all these things that we are like, we are

[22:25] malleable people, like, uh, our, our core beliefs can change the things that we find most important can be modified. And, and then, then it just becomes as easy as just doing what I want to do. Um, and, and so like, I applied that, uh, those lessons to running and, and did very much the same, similar thing of like, I'm going to find some podcasts that I, I love, and I'm going to, to listen to a whole backlog of episodes about running. And I'm going to read a ton of books. I'm going to look online for anything that anybody has ever mentioned about a book that they've liked, and I'm going to buy it on audible and it's going to cost me $200 worth of audible credits. Um, but if it is even 10% helpful, it is worth its weight in gold. Um, and, and so I did, I mean, I don't know, probably 10 is underselling it. I probably listened to like 15, 20 books. Yeah. Uh, which is just kind of, how do I do things? But like that, that whole process is actually like, again, to kind of go back to the top, that's kind of why we're doing this is I think that in general, those lessons learned and the path forward that you can make in life, um, is predicated by learning how to change those core beliefs.

[23:41] Yeah. And, and I think part of that, it could be listening to the show and, you know, if, if we can help one person take that step, that path that they would like for themselves to, to build that new horizon, to use the name of our show. Um, I, I think that absolutely all of this is worth it. Every, every dollar we spent on the silly shelf ornaments and the, these mics and, and all of these fancy cameras and all that would be worth it if we can help people do this. Yeah. And I think, you know, I want to, you know, put it like a disclaimer. We're not professionals. We're not a like therapist, but this is what we have found has just been, so helpful in our own lives. And, um, if like just hearing our experiences can, um, you know, help somebody, I think that is so important because I do definitely think with this show, we want to be real, um, and vulnerable and talk about things that are hard sometimes, but like important. Um, so yeah, I just want to like say we're definitely not like professionals and like, you know, if, you know, mental health, like go get, you know, all the help that you need. But like, I do think, um, there's a lot of

[24:58] change that can happen when you do what Jeff has done and had immersed himself in those, like wanting to be those changes. Yeah. And, and first off, speak for yourself. I have a psychology degree, so, um, I do know what I'm talking about. Okay.

[25:19] The second off, I also want to acknowledge like, you know, my, um, my way of changing core beliefs, uh, is, uh, you know, it's not like it is applicable to every single person on the planet. Um, like I do think that there's a lot of people who benefit from, uh, from this style of, you know, you know, changing behavior through changing beliefs. But, uh, you know, also there's people in the world like yourself who go through life and they're like, well, I should run because it just do that. And which is a superpower unto itself. Uh, I don't really understand how that works. Um, maybe you can help me and, and help others magically just have the ability to decide like, yeah, I'm just going to have a clean house and that's just what I'm going to do for the entirety of my life. Yeah. Yeah. I think everybody is like, I'm like, was that like a question and you want me to like expand on that a little bit? Cause I, I don't, I'm not sure. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, I'm, so I am definitely more of a disciplined person and I think, that is, that has. What does it mean to be a disciplined person? I don't even understand like, how do you be like, he just, they're just born that way. And that's just what you want. Sometimes. I mean, I think there are people that like in general are just more

[26:35] disciplined. It probably had, you know, a little bit to do with how they're raised and what their families did. Um, and I was definitely, I feel like I always grew up in, you know, like you said, a clean house, like that is important to me. Um, and I, you know, I sure we had like the messes, but in general, like, I feel like we always lived pretty cleanly. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sure. But, uh, you didn't like grow up, uh, as a runner, like you didn't grow up in a family. No, that's true. That's very true. Like lifelong, you know, going out and picking their sport and doing their thing until, you know, into adulthood and stuff like that. So, and, and in fact, like even growing, up through school, like you didn't, uh, you did some sports stuff, but not a lot. Certainly not to the extent that you did after you were at school. So what, you know, I started doing, um, yeah, like you said, I, I definitely did not grow up in like, uh, like a very sports heavy home, which I know like a lot of people are. Um, and um, but when I, I'm trying to really

[27:51] remember, like I ran in high school a little bit, but I don't know, I don't really have like a strong recollection of like the desire of what I do when I hit like college. Um, so it's kind of funny, like you said, like I, like part of my identity is I work from home while I also like did all my college online, which I'm like, maybe I need to get out more. Um,

[28:18] I remember in college, um, I went and did some group exercise classes. I think it was cycle. Yeah. And I thought it was so much fun. Like, and like I said, I haven't, I didn't really have the like sports, like I didn't do much sports. So I never had really felt that like adrenaline, um, competition that I got from like a group cycle class. So I don't know. I think I was drawn to that a little bit. Um, just the fun environment, um, of doing that. So I do remember like, that was kind of my first stepping block into living a more healthy lifestyle was getting into like group exercise. Um, and honestly, then at that point I kind of just started like different ones. Like I remember trying like turbo kick and I, I don't even know what it's called now, but I remember thinking that was so fun. Um, so I don't know. I think that was kind of how I got into it is I, branched out. I tried something like I'd never tried group exercise before, literally like signed up for gym, the gym and just went by myself and tried it. And I don't know. I, I don't know. I just thought it

[29:35] sounded like fun. And then I really, really, really loved it. And like, I really found instructors that I felt like could push me. And I think that's the other thing too, is like, like, feeling like my body was strong, like stronger than you realize. Um, which even I'm still learning today. And like, I know one thing we haven't really talked about is like the building blocks of what we're doing for, um, our running future and like what we're doing. And like right now, um, I don't know, I'm sure we'll talk more and more about it, but we're training for Sydney marathon. We ran a few marathons, just ran one not too long ago. And, um, so like still even now, I'm learning what in the heck my body is capable of. Um, but it's fun, but hard, like, and sometimes the hard sucks. Like sometimes like I don't want to work that hard. And sometimes like, like even now, like I'll occasionally go to the cycle class and I'm like, Oh my gosh, like, why am I doing this? But it's like that after of like, man, like I worked so hard and like, that's the difference maker. I think. So to go back to the, like the motivation that you get through

[30:51] group exercise, why do you feel like that specifically for your personality type is something that it helps keep you down that path? Like, is that like, what, what about that keeps you there? What do you enjoy? Like, is it the just hanging out with other people? I think it's, yeah, it's like, I think when you're starting out and you don't really know what to do, um, you kind of have that guidance already. Like, you know, like, okay, I'm going to be instructed by like this instructor that obviously knows what they're doing. So there's a comfort level in that. So there's like, it can be a little uncomfortable walking into a class. Like you don't know what you're doing. And I would definitely say, if you have friends, like take a friend with you. Like I just know, like sometimes when I, when I was going for the first time, like I didn't have a lot of friends that had that same drive to go do something like that. Um, but there's definitely a comfort level with like something new and like having that instructor. Um, and then, like I said, I think it was working hard for that, however long you're going for.

[32:06] And then like feeling that like sense of like, wow, I worked really hard and like, I feel so good. Um, and then there's also like, I don't know, there's that like human connection of like, you're working hard with like a whole group of people. Like it's not just you. Um, like, and you're all kind of like cheering each other on in your own like way of like, good job. Like, I know you lifted up that weight hard. I know you worked out. Is that what you say to people? I know you lifted up that weight hard. Yeah. I guess that's something people are going to learn is like, I say things wrong sometimes. Like I'll like have like something like I want to say, and then it's like, it's wrong. And I'm like, wait, that wasn't what I meant. Um, but yes, no, I can't. I don't think I've ever said that to somebody, but like, maybe you should, maybe I should, maybe I should make a t-shirt. Hey, you lifted that weight up hard. A true inspiration on the back. I don't know, but that is, I don't know, for someone like me that has the motivation kind of to do a thing that gives you like that comfort to like step, actually step into it. That's interesting. I feel like the part of it that I wouldn't have guessed would be, you know, having a trusted

[33:23] guide through the thing that you're talking about doing and being able to like lean on their expertise. Whereas I feel like my default would be much more. So like, I want to be my own coach through this. Like I want to learn all the stuff. Uh, and I find that more motivating. Um, and I have like a real life example of this because like, if we're shopping at the grocery store, if we're shopping at a home goods or not home goods, um, home like depot or something like that. Like if there's like a thing that we cannot find, or we are not sure what the thing is that we're looking for, I'm one to just go ask a very kind employee of, Hey, this is what we're looking for. Can you point us in the right direction? Where you are one to search on your phone for how ever long it takes to find the thing in the aisle on the row before you would even dare to ask an employee for any amount of help. So that's a real life example. I mean, I think that there's no fate worse than having to ask somebody where something is. Um, so I'd, yeah, I'd rather die.

[34:40] Oh my God. Uh, okay. So I don't know where on earth. Yeah. We kind of got lost in the, we'll, we'll refocus ourselves. So like reeling it back in. So I want to go back to the running story. So I, I ran that two and a half miles and it was terrible. And, uh, I, I knew though that like, first off the start of anything is by far the hardest part. Um, and it really is like whatever, when you realize that it like, okay, cool. It sounded like a dream sounded like a reality. More than likely like that in state probably is great. Like it probably is a great thing that you're going after. It probably is a big feeling of accomplishment to finish a half marathon. You know, like that was the thing I was working toward. Um, but when you realized like to get there, it's going to be really, really, really hard. And it's going to be really, really, really hard for the foreseeable future. Um, and it's like when you realize like, okay, this is going to be hard. And now I, now I, I've felt how it's going to be hard. It's no more of like, well, you know, that that's going to be tough. I'm like looking at this training plan, I'm gonna have to run all these miles. And that does seem like a lot. And then you go out and do it and

[35:55] you're like, holy frick. Yep. That it's every bit as hard and harder, uh, than I was anticipating. How do you figure out a way to still show up to still do it? And like, that's, that's the magic. So, um, you know, I, to me, like how I do that is, um, you know, the, the people that run marathons are the sort of people who can make their way through that. And so what, uh, you know, my, my path toward changing that about myself and becoming that person, um, is to, to surround myself with as much, you know, just trying to pound it into my head through listening to things, reading things, learning things, looking things up. And, and eventually you, I, you know, I, I became a runner. Like I, now I identify as that. In fact, um, really, really early on, I would call myself a runner, even though I hadn't ran like 10 miles total in the last decade. Um, but I, I chose that that was going to be my identity. And then it's just a matter of making that true, uh, which is a lot of freaking work. And I think like to a lot of people, you know, start the new year with wanting that to like a new year's

[37:12] resolution, how is this, how is this like different? How is this mindset different from like new year, new you? Yeah, I, uh, this is great. I, I didn't even think about this, uh, as we were, uh, kind of going through and talking about some stuff that we might potentially cover. Um, I'm, I, it, I think it's human nature to love the idea of a new year's resolution. Like I I'm going to do these five things at this one thing and it's going to completely change my life. And then, um, the, I don't know what the actual statistic is, uh, but it is obviously incredibly low that anybody sticks with that to the, to the extent that it may as well be zero. Um, and I, I think that that is probably the least effective way to make a lasting change because it, you know, going back to the top, it is, it's just an exercise and talking about what you want and, and to see how far your willpower can take you and spoiler, it almost never is far enough that it sticks as a lasting thing about your life. So, you know, really all it is, like, if you're like, I'm going to eat healthy and lose weight and I'm going to do it on January 1st. Um, and I'm going to have, and I'm going to see how long that lasts. Uh, and, and what you find

[38:27] out is not how much weight you can lose. You find out how long it is that you can have a willpower carry you. Um, and then ultimately there's going to be, um, like, ah, man, I'm off work because, uh, it's a and like, ah, man, I ate a thousand calories for breakfast. Ah, well I'll, I'll just eat a lighter lunch and then lunch rolls around and like, I'm fricking hungry again. And I'm going to eat that. And then dinner rolls around. Like I blew my, my thing and I was not supposed to have a cheat day, but like just an extra cheat day. And then like, it just like snowballs out of control and like, and now we're right back to where we were. Um, and, and so I feel like, yeah, new, new year's resolution is just like exercise in how much, uh, how much can your willpower take you? And it's never, never to that, uh, destiny. Where you actually want to go. And so how I feel about this and why I feel like the way that I have introduced lasting change in my life is different is for one, um, there is like, there's no distance between, I think of it as a good idea and I'm going to start pursuing it. Um, and what I like specifically, what I mean by that is I don't fricking wait until the weekend to

[39:42] start the thing. Like I, I signed up like the second that I decided, like, I'm going to fricking be a runner and I'm going to figure out how to make that happen. I signed up for the half marathon. Like, and, and that's crazy. Like, no, that doesn't make any amount of sense. Um, but a lot of these really hard things are never going to make sense when you start. And the hardest thing is just to start. And, and like, to be honest, like if you are going to be a runner, then you start running today and like, and hard stop. Like there, there is not going to be something that's going to change between now and January 1st, that's going to make it so much easier to do. All you're doing is wasting time. And if you want to get to a goal and you're going to defer the start date to some arbitrary cutoff, like I'm going to, well, I'll start on Monday, uh, or I'm going to start on Saturday, uh, or I'm going to start after my birthday or when I turn X years old, um, like just, just do the thing, like, just, just get going. Um, you know, that, that is also how, you know, we have the bravely.dev thing over here. Um, which I can't make the camera switch to the third view, but, um, but yeah, so, you know, we started down

[40:58] the path of our business very much that way of like, uh, it went from idea to all in for like 130 straight days now, um, of make the thing happen. Right. And, um, there was no like, okay, well, you know, I'll wait till the summer and the kids are out of school. So we'll have a little bit more time in the summer or we'll wait till after the marathon because we'll have more time because we won't be spending as much time on long runs, uh, or whatever. And so I'll have more weekend. It's like, I'm, I'm starting now immediately. And because, you know, I, I have aspirations for what my future looks like. I've always wanted to have this thing. So I, so I have a question for you. So like for me, and I know I mentioned this is like, I'm a planner. I am a meticulous, like, it's so funny too, because we are you, you are not, we, you are such a spontaneous person. Like, I can't even tell you how many times you've had an idea and we just go do it. Like, it's so like, I've had kind of had to like learn to like, just be okay with that. But for someone

[42:14] like, me, that is a planner and I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row. And like day one today feels really hard. Like, how do you navigate that side of things? Cause even like, yeah, the business and bravely and, um, like still even now I'm like, how did we, how did that even get started? I don't even like, it just did. And, you know, you've done this enough times that you're kind of like, you know, getting to be like really good at starting things. Um, but like for someone like me, it's still really hard. Yeah. So like, is the question, how do you, like for someone like, like that wants to have it really planned out, really thought through, really like intentional about it, like rather than just like, all right, go now. So, and you'll have to help me through this. Cause I don't have the same, like you mentioned, like I, I am not risk averse. I'm fine. Like if you, if you want me to sell the house, sell the cars, put it all into something, like I'm going to do it. And, um, and that's, that's obviously, I, I understand that I'm a little bit crazy in that sense. Um, but at the same time, I think at least from my perception, a lot of

[43:29] people who don't start, uh, who are not okay, like they need to know like all the X, Y, Z factors of the thing. Uh, just at least again, from my perspective, it feels like just fear, right? Like it's going to, it's going to be, um, real hard. And what if I'm not perfect with it? And I need to like, well, I'm going to look silly or people are going to judge me or there's X, Y, Z, just like bad thing that could happen, bad thing that could happen, bad thing that could happen, bad thing that could happen. And where my like mindset has shifted to be clear, like even that, that even for me, um, has held me back at times. And like, if I could go back and I had like one thing I could tell my younger self is like, those fears are never as bad as what reality actually is. Yeah. Like, I mean, sure. Occasionally maybe there's something that's like, wow. Yep. That, that was something that was, uh, avoidable hindsight 2020, but I would say 99 times out of a hundred, those fears, even if they like that thing that you were worried about happens, it's like, oh, well, that was like, that was nothing. Yeah. That was, that was not a big deal. And, and, and so, and I also feel very fortunate

[44:46] cause like I've had people tell me those things. And even though I'm stubborn and I don't think through that, uh, in the moment, um, you know, in hindsight, uh, like going back and learning from that wisdom of it's going to be okay. It's going to be fine. You're going to learn along the way. And it like failure isn't a, uh, a terminal condition. Failure is an opportunity to take what you've learned and, you know, bounce to the next thing. So yeah, that would say overthinking things is almost never helpful. Right. Yeah. I think you, you will learn more doing a podcast with your husband and just doing it, uh, and getting into it. Then you'll ever like learn from talking through it and pre-planning and, um, and getting perfect. Cause the thing is, is like, you're already better at being a podcaster now than any amount of time that we've talked about it in the, in the past. And, um, that that's true of, of, any, any big thing that you're wanting to go and do, you know, I, I, we talk about the business. Like I, I really love our little software development business that we've built. Um, but you know, I, I am, I'm, I don't even know 10,000 times more knowledgeable

[46:02] about how that works than I was, um, four months ago. And that comes from a person whose career is in tech leadership stuff. Like, I, I come from this and, but diving into it and having to be responsible for all the things, uh, from, you know, everything from setting up HR stuff, uh, all the way through to fulfillment and like marketing. I mean, that, that's like a real big thing that I am learning about and, and, and actively trying to become better at, but like, uh, I am so much better now than I was four months ago. I've learned so much. Yeah. And it really just comes from like, you just got to do it. You have to have the life experience. I do think it's that it's like, you just got to do it. Um, it's scary. Like it literally like to think for someone like me still to even think of like this big, I don't even know, like just this big thing that we have this big dream for. It's like so cool to think about it. And then it's also so scary. I don't know how else to describe it, but yeah. Like what about, what about it is scary? Do you feel like, I think it's the risk. It's like, it's

[47:19] the failure. And like, I think that's something like I've even like, I've gone to therapy for is like this fear of failure, like failure and, um, like being okay with that and like having, which, you know, and I think one thing I would love to talk, maybe this isn't the week to do it, but, um, is like having like, it's okay to fail. And like, I have you to like, help me through that failure and like, how do people that, how do people navigate failure, I guess on their own. And then how do they like, what are some good ways to like get, like have somebody there, you know? And I feel so lucky because I have you and I know that's not the situation for everybody. Um, but yeah, I think for me it is that, that scariness of failure and I have had to do some like big growth and I'm still like, I mean, I'm still growing in that of like being even in my like, own job and, um, uh, starting the company together of like, not everything's going to be perfect and that's okay. Like learn from that. And like, it is the human experience to have moments that are not going to go exactly as you planned.

[48:36] And that is, I mean, that's going to happen and that's okay. Yeah. I think, um, you know, one, one thing that I've had the biggest shift of, with regard to failure is, um, the, I would say like the thing that I would want to always avoid, um, and I said this a second ago, but like it, it's never as bad as you think. And also, um, failure truly, like in the things that you're afraid of, like the things that you would define failure as, which is like, I'm not going to meet the, I'm not going to meet my goal. Um, that is, that is an inevitable outcome. Like we are absolutely going to fail. Um, like either you're going to fail because you gave up or you never tried and you used to get the failure by default and you're gonna have to live with that, or you're going to try something and, uh, maybe you, maybe you knock it out of the park this time. Um, and that's great. Good job. Uh, you're lucky. But the, the reality of it is more often than not, you're going to have stuff that didn't go as planned. It's not going to go as good as you would have hoped. Um, you're going to have to learn and adjust. Uh, I mean, running is a great analog for that because like the number of times that I

[49:52] have felt confident, um, uh, about how a race might go or how a particular run might go, um, is a much higher number than how many of them actually went well. And sometimes you think like, oh man, this, this whole training block is going to be crap and I'm not going to be able to get to the point that I want to get to. And then you build the bricks. And you build that and you get to the point and you're like, wow, actually, you know what? This was better than I expected. Yeah. And I think something too, that helps me. And this seems a little cliche, but are some like strong mantras. And I know like sometimes we're struggling through anything or a run, um, is like, if it was easy, everybody would do it. Like that's something like I repeat to myself when I'm like having a hard moment. And I think that you could say that, you know, even with this company and Oh, yeah. Like if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. And you know, like it is hard and that's okay that it's hard. And then like, there's, which I mean, I know like we, like I do, I like to take Peloton classes and stuff and they always say like progress, not perfection. Like that, that one's another one that's like really stuck with me. So I think finding those mantras too, that like resonate with you is I think important

[51:09] because it's just a few words, but like, can have lasting impact. Yeah. I think one thing that, um, I also have seen reframed is it actually what you, what you hit on is exactly the thing is nowadays. I almost get excited when some new challenge arises that makes me feel like, like, Oh my gosh, I just want to give up because every time that I feel that I know that other people have that same like hurdle in front of them. And I don't mean that in a bad way, but like, I am also a competitive person. Like, and I, I want to, I want to do a good job. Yeah. And the harder that the road is, um, that means that there's going to be fewer people at the top. And, and so like, and maybe that's a little messed up, but like, I, I think that I, I now look at that as an exciting thing because I'm not going to give up. Like, I know I'm going to keep going. I'm going to figure this out. And that means it's just going to be that much harder, um, for anybody else to do the same thing. Um, and, and it's, it's honestly like, that's the blessing that not knowing all of this at the beginning, uh, has, because if I would have, if I would know all the things that I was going to have to figure out a solution to, I wouldn't have started the business. Right.

[52:27] It would have been like way too insurmountable, um, way too stressful to think about all those things, but you, you don't face them all at once. You face them one at a time or a handful at a time. Um, but yeah, like right now, you know, one silly thing is one of the apps that we, we built, um, it got pulled from our payment processor. They don't allow us to do that sort of thing. And so now I'm going to, uh, have to figure out another payment processor, which is a whole freaking thing. And, uh, to have to go through that is not anything that I wanted to have to spend time on. Um, but the, the hidden blessing in all that is that I am now going to not be dependent. Uh, the company will not be dependent upon a single payment processors whims to our ability to sell things to customers. Like we're going to have an alternative thing with that. And then also through that process, the ability to make lemonade out of this limit of a situation, which is, Hey, you know what? Screw it. I'm fine. I can't sell it. Great. I'm just going to give it away. And we're going to use that as an opportunity to have some people know about us that wouldn't have known about us. Otherwise they can get some value from it. I can't sell it to them anyhow. And then maybe they take that goodwill and consider us next time. They have some other software need. Uh,

[53:42] and, and yeah, that's a great thing. And I'll learn some marketing things along the way through that process. I'm going to build out some infrastructure to be able to give stuff away and be able to keep track of all that stuff. And so, yeah, was it a hurdle that I had to go through? Absolutely. Would I take it back now? I wouldn't, I, I, we are set up better with the business because of that thing that I did not want to have happen. And like that feeling in my stomach, when I got that email of like, you're all your, all your money's on hold, uh, and you can't sell this thing. And it was like, Holy, like what the frick? Like, this is a, I, I, I just like you catastrophize. And in the, in the first like three minutes that that happened, it was like the, the world got a little darker around the outside of it. And, and you're just like, I, how am I ever going to figure this out? And then, and then it's just like, well, I just one thing at a time. Like I can't, I can't go back in time and fix this. And so now it's just, what do, what do we need to do to make our path now that I know these new facts? Uh, and how do I learn how to avoid this, um, next time? Uh, which is quite honestly, I, there's disclosures that you have to read. Like they have acceptable

[54:57] use policies for a reason. Um, and I a hundred percent was, uh, in violation of that. They had every right to shut me down for what I, uh, for what had happened. And, um, you know, so that's, that's another lesson. Yeah. I'm not really one to read a lot of details, so perhaps that will be something I'll have to learn over the course of time a couple of times, but you know, we, we are better off because of the, the challenge and, and that is, that's so, that's so true of so many things. Right. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, um, we've been going for a while now. Do we want to wrap up this first episode or did you have anything else? I do. I do think, um, to, to really nail down the, the lesson from the running stuff. Cause while this is not a running podcast at all, it is, um, a big thing that I think a lot of people have aspirations toward. And, um, you know, I, I think for me, like, as I went through that, I, I learned a lot about how to, to take something that you want to do and turn that into something that is not just a new thing, but rather has now been like a,

[56:14] that almost three year thing. And a few marathons under your belt and a few marathons. Um, yeah, it, it didn't end just at a half marathon. Um, it's something that continues to grow and continues to be, um, a part of my life. And when I look out five years from now and, uh, what do I, what do I want myself to be? Um, a runner is part of that. Yeah. And, um, I'm, I'm happy with, with, you know, the progress that I've made and I have other things that I want down that path. But, um, what that, what that took for me personally was, um, I had to make that a part of my identity. And that was through, um, exposing myself to as much of, uh, that as possible. And maybe, maybe in a way it's more just the introverts version of what you described with group exercise. Like maybe it's just, you know, I, for me, I, I needed to be exposed to, like-minded people. Um, I just am not one that's going to show up for a track night. Like that's just not my style. Um, I'm okay with the occasional, you know, running with random friends and stuff. But, uh, for me, it, it, these are internal exercises. And, uh, so I can get kind of the same benefit of seeing other

[57:30] people do it, but just more through books and podcasts and, um, and just engrossing myself in those sort of things. And I think it'll be interesting to, as you know, we talk about that a little bit more of like how that, what that looks like for different people, because like, for me, I feel like there are other ways, like I can do basically the same thing, but in different ways. Um, and like exploring what that could be. Cause to be honest, I don't really know, but like, I think there, there's something there. Um, and there's like, there, like you said, there's introverts and extroverts and I'm, you know, a little bit of both, I guess. Um, where you're definitely a more introvert. And I think there are really unique ways, like, and like, that's the thing too, is like, it's not like a formula. It's not like, I mean, in a way it kind of is like, but like, there are different ways this can work for people and it takes to pull in like the failure and like, it just takes different trying different things. Yeah. And it's okay to try different things. Like what works for you. Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, what through my thing and like, I'm a, I'm a person who enjoys writing. And so over the course of the last five years, I've

[58:47] written quite a bit. Um, and go back and I read notes, uh, that I had written, you know, early on in the process or even before this, where, you know, I, I talk about like, I'm going to do this thing. And it is really cool to go back and read those things because, you know, to me, when I think of, um, you know, how, because I think I, we can end the show today on, you know, if you could, if you could give one, if you could give a person, uh, some advice on like, if they want to make a change, like, what would that be? Um, and I look back and I, I see myself doing it. It's just, it's really cool to see that. Um, so I'll, uh, I'll ask you first so I can have a second to like, think about that. But, um, if you had somebody who was like, Hey, I want to start running or, you know, I want to start eating healthier or, um, you know, I want to start eating healthier or, you know, I want to you know, fill in the blank. Um, they have some thing that they want. How would you help them turn that into, uh, something that is, uh, something that they can actually achieve? Well, and I think you've touched on it, like immersing yourself, like, you know, find some, um, like content creators that, you know, you kind of like look up to that, maybe talk about things like that. Um,

[1:00:04] like get excited about it, like find I, I think that's it. Like find ways to get excited. Um, and, and, and, you know, like you said, you go back and you read what you've written. And I think that even in itself is so fun, like write some things down and know in however much time it could even be like in a month, like you'll have that to go back to look back on. Um, which is really, really cool. And, and I, and I would say like, just find ways to make it fun. Yeah. I think, man, that's, that's better than even what I was going to say. Cause like I, as, as you'll see, like I am a very passionate person and, um, through that passion, like that comes from a sense of like playfulness and fun. And, um, I, I think, you know, I'm not one to take myself too seriously. Like I, uh, I'm certainly, uh, you know, prone to all the same things that everybody else is, but like at the end of the day, like I, I do, I like, I want to have a good time. Like I want to be playful and fun and the

[1:01:21] longterm sustainability of something does need to be like that. That doesn't need to be a part of it. Yeah. And like, it's not going to be fun always like running that first mile or two is not going to be fun. But if it's like listening to your favorite comedian or if you're like wearing an outfit or a pair, a color that you wouldn't have normally worn before, like find ways, like, yeah. And it's very, make it really applicable to you. Yeah. I would say, uh, hard things can also be fun for sure. So just to say that it's fun or enjoyable doesn't mean that I mean that it is easy, right. Um, by all means, there's lots of stuff that is extremely hard that you're just going to have to do. Uh, but it is fine being the little tiny bits of that, that can be moments of fun or, um, just a little sprinkling across the top, uh, as you go through and, and can make those things enjoyable. Um, for me, I would say the, the, the thing that I find most, um, most impactful is whatever the thing is that you're wanting to do. Um, you're going to

[1:02:36] have a part of that. That is the reason why you don't do it now. And, uh, so like, you have, you know, if you're eating healthier, you're going to have to figure out how to buy healthy food or, uh, how to, you know, meal prep or plan your week or whatever, or if you're going to run, um, you know, how, how are you going to fit that into your schedule and how are you going to wake up early and et cetera. And even if it's not something like you, like, you know, we're, we're really sticking to like healthy lifestyle things, but even, which I think is great, but even if it's like, you know, like journaling. Yeah. I want to write a book. Yeah. And like, or like write something that you think is fun. Like, I don't know, like there's so many ways like you can, I mean, again, we've kind of stuck to like the more healthier lifestyle things, but like, that is definitely not what like you have to stick to. Right. Well, you know, with the business, you know, for me, um, and I'll kind of, kind of bring this home, but the, uh, the thing for me right now that I have to figure out that I don't know how to do is, um, like I'm not a marketing professional. My, my job is in technology. Yeah. Um, and so I feel very comfortable with the development and the product design and, um, all that side of the business. Um, but I don't have the professional background of a marketer. Uh,

[1:03:54] and I don't need to be a Steve jobs, but I do need to be able to be serviceable in that. And so for me, like what that looks like is what do, what does a marketer know how to do? What are like, what are the things that they spend their time? Learning about, um, what, what are, what are things that if I would have gone to school that I would have like gone through and learned? Uh, and, and so what I would suggest, like the answer to my question of like, how would I advise you to start the thing is look at what do I, what do I need to do in the day to day to make that happen? Like identify what that activity is that that is the hard part of what you need to do. And then find people that are doing that and learn from them. There are, I mean, that's the beauty of the, you know, the, the internet today is like, there are no shortage of people that are doing the thing, uh, out in public, uh, across all the different places that you can find, you know, podcasts and videos and stuff like it it's out there. Like there are absolutely people doing it. So find them and, and you'll probably find a handful of really entertaining versions of this. Um, and then, uh, and learn from them. Like, just like, okay. So I know that I

[1:05:10] need to wake up and run every single morning. If I want to fill in the blank goal, I need to watch people who are doing that. And I need to see that it's possible. I need my brain to stop fighting that because like, yeah, they also want to sleep in. I want to sleep in, but I have to be able to wake up and do it. And so like seeing people emulate that and live that out helps you realize like, okay, like I can, I can learn this. I can do this. And then just, you keep, keep compounding that belief through your own repetitions at it, but then also just like continue to, uh, just try to drill that into your skull by, because, because here's the thing, like we're humans and we want to be entertained and there's all kinds of things that you can just scroll through on your phone and, um, and use your phone as a pacifier, take a little bit of that, um, and use that for something good. And so, you know, scroll past the stuff that's just junk and stop and watch the video of the thing that is the thing that you want. Um, and, and basically teach your algorithm like, Hey, this is the stuff that I care about and that I want. And, uh, algorithm will figure it out. Algorithm, very smart algorithm will help you spend time doing whatever it is that it thinks that you want. Um, and, and so, yeah,

[1:06:26] find, find people who are finding joy in the day-to-day grind of what it is that you want to achieve. Um, and, and, and start following those people and learn from them. And I'll say the fun part is with the business has, has been getting some fun merch, easy, fun stickers. And it brings me, it brought us some joy. I don't know. So it was just, you need people to like buy running merch if they want to be a runner. Well, yeah. Like buy that running headband, buy those running socks, like retail therapy. Katy's advice is retail therapy. Hey, you know, real life here. It works. All right. So if, uh, you would like to email us any questions or anything like that, you can email us at brave, uh, sorry, that's bravely.dev. This is a different thing. You can email us at build horizons.com. Uh, and yeah, if you have any questions, topics, or anything else, I just want to say hello. Uh, we would love to, to hear from you. Yeah. And with that, we're going to turn it over to Katy, who has spent a lot of time. This is going to be fantastic. Absolutely. 10 out of 10 sign off Katy hit it. Thanks for building with us. And we are cheering you on. Wow. That's it. That's the one.